Career Success, Strengths and Access to Work is better.
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Speaker 1 : Becca Brighty
Hello and welcome to the ADHD Impact Podcast. I'm Becca Brighty, business psychologist and ADHD coach who received an ADHD diagnosis at the age of 34. I've since seized my professional training to understand how the ADHD brain functions and use that information to change the way I work. The purpose of this podcast is to help people to see how they can harness their ADHD brain so that they can make the impact in the world that they know that they can. And to help those working with ADHD is to create environments that help everyone thrive at work.
So today's guest is Nicolo Jane Little who by profession is a proud ADHD and CEO of Celebrate Difference and the hub concept. Nicola is someone who's played a big part in where I am today. So before I was diagnosed, I spoke with Nicola about access to work because of something to do with my back, a back issue and something I will be talking about access to work today. But when I was talking to her about the things I'd done and some of the workarounds that I'd come up with from my back, she mentioned that a lot of the things that I was doing were things that she saw a lot in a ADHDers as well. And then she suggested maybe this is something that we should look into together. We'll do, well write down all these things that you are doing every day and we'll have a chat.
Speaker 2: Nicolo Jane Little:
I'm not able to diagnose when I make that absolutely clear.
Becca Brighty
She's not. But once you know, you kind of get this radar, it's just a radar vibe.
So she suggested that I'll write down all my symptoms and then we would go through them together. So apart from being part of my journey to diagnosis, the company that Nicola has set up, Celebrate Difference has helped me with my access to work application. And that whole difficult, insanely difficult for ADHD as process was made possible for me because of her company.
Nicolo Jane Little
Wow.
Becca Brighty
Shout out to Laura Forsyth as well.
Nicolo Jane Little
Oh, Laura and the team. But they're just magnificent man. Well,
Becca Brighty
The team's great, but she is my main person who I'm always like, Laura, what about this? And what about that? And I've sent you this and can you remind me about this?
Nicolo Jane Little
And that's why she's the MD because she's extraordinary. She is brilliant.
Becca Brighty
So access to work has changed my life and my business. And so I wanted to invite Nicola onto the podcast so she could share her knowledge and expertise around access to work and as well as the things she's learned from the communities that she's built and through supporting hundreds of a DH ADHD as well as her own lived experience. So welcome to the podcast, Nicola.
Nicolo Jane Little
Well, thank you. What an introduction. I'm all emotional. Yes. Hi. Thank you for having me.
Becca Brighty
You're welcome. So first of all, do you want to tell us a bit about your personal experience with ADHD and what led you to setting up Celebrate Difference?
Nicolo Jane Little
Okay, well, we haven't got all day, so I'll try and keep it short. I'm not knowing just the whole podcast as this story. I am literally not known. Okay. So after struggling for so many years in different professions, I was a school teacher. I've done loads and loads and loads of things, lived loads of places. I went self-employed 15 years ago because I needed that level of control and to work for myself in my own environment. And nine businesses later here, we sit with celebrate difference. I found out about myself by reading someone else's post on Facebook. As you do, you scroll around and if you took her name out and put my name in that whole list of the struggles she had was me. So of course the minute my husband walked in, I was like, right, I've got ADHD, I need to do something about it.
And he's like, what? However, it was three years ago now. And at that time I managed to get through my appointments within three or four months and got me diagnosis really quickly through the ADHD Foundation, big shout out to that team and to Tony and everything he does down there. And then I got a diagnosis of dyspraxia. Well, you can't actually get a formal diagnosis of dyspraxia in the uk, but I have all the dyspraxic watts and if you ever see me bumping into things continuously clearly, and then now currently looking at pursuing a diagnosis of autism because I'm sick of everybody telling this, oh yes, Nicola get those letters as well. So I have this spaghetti alphabet spaghetti of all the letters after me name, and it does once the ADHD is managed, I can't say treated because it can't be treated, but once you learn how to manage your ADHD in a different way, the other stuff starts peaking up. It's like, what is that whackamole thing where it's one and then it's the next and you hit that one down and then there's that. So I'm on a journey for that next.
Becca Brighty
Oh wow. So what is it, so you said that a few people have mentioned to you, Nico, you've really need to find out about autism. What are the symptoms that others recognising that you recognised?
Nicolo Jane Little
It was through me dyspraxia appointments where the level of control I have to have, the level of, it was just so many things she said, because I was there going, why do I bump in everything? Why can't I remember that the end of the bed is there and I've got this plethora of bruises? What is this thing with this? Drop everything all the time, blah, blah, blah. And through those assessments she was like, I hear what you're saying about this, that, and the other, but I really see some autistic tendencies if you like, or traits or whatever we're supposed to call them. And it was through those conversations that started that thought process. So it was quite interesting going for one thing. And then this other thing is mentioned, and to be fair, I'm neuro divergent. I've got a spiky brain. That's the end of it. But it's interesting to know the social problems that I have, the communication issues that I have full on the autism spectrum. So it was just a whole interesting time, A whole interesting time.
Becca Brighty
Yeah.
So I think it's really, really helpful because you said you've got your diagnosis because you read someone's Facebook post about the symptoms. And so I think in the stereotypes of what people think of as having autism, I definitely don't think you would fall into that stereotype. So are there any particular things that people are picking up on in you who know about autism and the real traits and how it shows up in women? If anyone's listening and thinking, oh, maybe I have autism. What would the things be for people to look out for?
Nicolo Jane Little
So in my control, I'm spot on. So I will be the most sociable, the most gregarious, the most outgoing. You put us on a stage in front of 200 people, all is fine when that is in my control. But if I went to your networking event, I would not be the same person and same character. If it's my spot and I've planned it and I'm delivering it, knee bother, absolutely no bother at all in a different environment, which is ostensibly looks the same to everybody else. There's a group of people in the room, there's this, that and the other. Obviously when I'm doing my thing and I've planned it and I know what the outcomes are, what the objectives are, what am I trying to do, what am I trying to get plonk to me in a similar environment that someone else has managed and run, I do not cope well to the point that I've just about almost stopped going.
But when I built my business 15 years ago, I was at everything all the time. I knew I had to be out there, I knew how to do it. And so it was just a necessary way to build business and I didn't know what was going on. And I masked very heavily and mask very, very well. I mask very well. So it's interesting now that the things I could do, I find that so troublesome now, and I dunno whether that's about allowing yourself to understand that you're struggling. And it was buried so deep a decade ago that it just didn't acknowledge those feelings, the whole eye contact thing. So I can look at you, I'm talking to you, but if you are talking to me, I will start then looking away. Didn't even realise I didn't look at people properly until this year. Oh, well,
Becca Brighty
Yeah, that's interesting.
Nicolo Jane Little
And then I'm wondering all over the place, and then when it's my turn to speak, I know to come back, but then I'll wonder all over because it's just really difficult to listen to what's been said and look intensely at someone at the same time. Stuff like that. Little tiny things. There's the little tiny things. It's not, people think this is one huge piece, but it's loads of little tiny interactions, communications, movements. There's not one thing that can pin it down. You know what I mean? Where you do actually, you actually do.
Becca Brighty
Absolutely. And I think that's one of the struggles with ADHD is when you're looking into it and everything resonates with you, but you like, but it's everything. It could be anything, but it's just that picture of, okay, yeah, some people are forgetful, but how much is it impacting your life? Sometimes people lose their train of thought, but how often is it happening and what impact is it actually having on you? It's that thing you said about not being able to do stuff that you used to be able to do since you've been diagnosed is something I hear all the time in my coaching clients that, oh, since I've been diagnosed, I'm just like, I'm so ADHD, I can't do anything. This is happening. I'm forgetting things more. And this happened to me with I, I've always found reading instructions and translating it into action, very, very difficult since my diagnosis. It's like everything's written in a different language. And so I looked into it a bit and apparently what happens is as well, all people have connections in their brain linked to the things I need to do every day. As a neuro divergent person, the things you naturally can't do, you'll often learn how to do as part of your masking. When you have a breakthrough or therapy or a diagnosis, those connections then can be broken.
Nicolo Jane Little
That's really interesting
Becca Brighty
Isn't it? I was like, oh wow, that explains it so well. So it's like for me, for example, this thing of I need to force myself even though it's so hard and my brain doesn't want to translate this written information into an activity, I'll look stupid because I've got someone's here, I've got these instructions in front of me, I've got to do this task. And so fought my brain, even though it wasn't naturally able to do it made me do it. Once I get the diagnosis, then the mask starts to come off, then those connections get broke, connections get broke.
Nicolo Jane Little
It's really interesting because I assumed it was permission based, whereas before I had to do it. So I had no choice. So get on and do it and put your mask is there, you didn't know it's there. And for those of you who don't know, it's like wearing your suit or armour to keep you safe. So masking is a way to stay safe when your mask starts to slip and you start feeling less safe or more safe in different environments to be yourself, all of a sudden there's a different permission. I allow it. I allow myself not to go to things anymore because I know it's too stressful and the mask is a heavy thing to have worn for nearly 48 years or however long. So I assumed it to be a permission based, a self-permission based change rather than perhaps that connectivity is broken now and you almost have to relearn it. So if you haven't got your armour on and if you're not safe anymore, you have to learn a different way to be able to force yourself different strategies and new ways of forcing yourself to do stuff.
Becca Brighty
I imagine that the permission thing will be in there.
Nicolo Jane Little
It's part of it. It is. Because you can sit and say, right, I'm going to network and I know I've got the goal. And then I'll be like, but do you really? Because if I spent, I dunno, half an hour on social media, I will meet more people that I'm doing in a room with a hundred people in because of how that really, really suits me. So then all of a sudden you're making proper adjustments, reasonable adjustments for yourself in a way that I wouldn't have done before. I would've just forced myself to do it before and coped with the ramifications of that. So there was this permission to be kinder to yourself, but equally it can never be used as an excuse. So just because I'm ADHD doesn't mean to say I can't do the stuff that my business needs. You've still got to do Morgan, you've still got to run your business or your job or whatever you're sitting doing when you're listening. So you can it then for me, and it's really personal to be using this new knowledge as an excuse not to.
Becca Brighty
I think that there's a difference between an excuse and a reason.
Nicolo Jane Little
Absolutely. And most people don't understand it. There is a reason I cannot get my diary, but I will not use that as an excuse not to have a go because the excuse piece goes are I can't do my diary so I'm not going to bother.
Becca Brighty
Or there's also an argument for I can't do my diary, but someone else is really good at it,
Nicolo Jane Little
Someone which is the way access to work works. So we bring people in then to help us to do the things we can't do. But you can talk yourself into a lifelong empty vessel of excuses if that's where you choose to sit. And I really struggled with that because I would just sit in my bed all the time and how we manage our mental health. And obviously most people with neurodivergent, anythings we suffer from poor mental health as well. And it's really, really easy to get in a cycle of really poor mental health. Hence Celebrate Difference, hence the name of the company. Celebrate Difference, hence the community we built. Hence making sure people don't feel alone with this stuff. You feel really isolated, especially when you find out, I mean for you, when we find out this stuff, it's like revelationary, shocking, lush. Oh my gosh, I've got all the answers. Oh my gosh, I have to live like this till I die. And that obviously, and that's probably a little bit of autistism black white in there,
Becca Brighty
so yay.
Nicolo Jane Little
Oh, and there's nothing in between. There is no way. And that's on some days on difficult days, that's hard. Well, every day it's hard as you well know, but we need to celebrate it.
Becca Brighty
Yeah, definitely. And I think that that thing about the excuse versus a reason, it's tricky for yourself, but it's also difficult I think for other people to understand because it is a hidden disability. And so the way I now manage my time, and when you came in, you said to me, how are you? And I said, oh, I'm great. I'm fantastic. I'm living my best life. And that is because of the changes that I've made from understanding my brain. And so the thing around the executive dysfunction and that for all a ADHD is you'll have an up to 30% delay in executive function. I now treat every day like an executive function marathon where I'm so selective with the things I do in terms of how much executive function is that going to require and can someone else do that for me? Do I need to do that?
And so I try to, now it's like an addiction. I try to now only do the things that only I can do. And the opposite effect for me in terms of you were saying, oh, if I just use it as an excuse, I would never get out of bed kind of thing. For me it's like I'm excited because I'm going to get up today and I'm going to do it with the things that only I can do that energise me that I'm really good at. And I'm not going to have all these draining things where I'm beating myself up for the fact that's taken me 45 minutes to write an email. And I've been on LinkedIn and I've read, oh look, that's an interesting offer from Tesco.
Nicolo Jane Little
It’s so empowering to hear you say it because with all the training I've done with all the business people who I've worked with, and there were thousands of them, the one thing that has to be mean and true is you have to set your stall out. You have to be in charge of yourself in your business, and it is up to you to determine that divergent or not. So the piece of work we're doing with Duram University about the deterioration of self-worth, what seems really obvious to me is that if you are not well, your business is not going to thrive. Or if you're in employment, you can't thrive. So we're doing all this research, we've been working on it for 18 months. And at the end of the day, if you are not okay, if you do not do the things that you love, then your business is not going to flourish and thrive.
Neither are you going to flourish and thrive in employment. It's different. But if you're self-employed, you have the opportunity to do exactly what you are asking. Now that takes a lot of courage and it also takes a lot of deprogramming from the whole of society that has told you what to do. You have to work nine till five, you have to be this productive. You must do this, you must do that. There is a list of all the musts, isn't there? You have to do this. You must do that. You must take an hour for lunch. You must do this shoulds, right? All the shoulds, which is a word that's banned in our place, as you well know, they're shoulds, right? But your employer would dictate that before your employer, it was university dictating that your school dictated that your parents told you how to live when you were very small. We live a life of being told how to live our life in all circumstances and then start working for yourself and make your own choices. People don't know how to do it. And it takes a lot of courage to say, in my case, I can't work between three and five. I'm going to sit on the couch and do a blanket, or I'll change the kind of work, but I can work then between seven and 10 instead. It takes a lot of courage to actually own that decision.
Becca Brighty
I think, yeah, I feel really fortunate for the role that I'm in. So my job is I am a business psychologist and I am a trained coach. So I can take the information about, okay, so I've learned about executive dysfunction, for example. Okay, what does that mean to me? I'm going to ask myself loads of coaching questions and then what do I know about how businesses perform effectively? Well, I know this, that and the other. So I'm then going to apply that information in that scientific approach. But I'm in a really unique lucky position to be a person who when I got diagnosed, had all that stuff literally in my head at my disposal. Whereas I think it takes, it's just not a normal thing to learn about something and then be able to process it in that way. And so I think one of the things that was great about access to work and that celebrate difference giving to so many people is coaching ADHD specific coaching allows you to think about why, how is my brain different and what do I want to do differently?
Nicolo Jane Little
And that's all we've got. So Celebrate Difference was set up after my journey. So I was 45, struggled all my life. I'm female, I'm blonde. There are lots of things I've gone through because of all of those, which perhaps others wouldn't. And I'm sitting there thinking there's got to be other people, not necessarily gender-based, but there's got to be other people like me who've got late diagnosis, who've struggled all of this time, who I can take what I've learned because I'm very passionate about speaking openly about this stuff and help those people and celebrate different came from that, from the learned experience that I've got, the lived experience I've got, the trauma I went through when I was offered help because getting access to work, which if you don't know, is a government grant for those of us who have additional needs, whether that is physical or mental health wise to help you thrive at work and stay, it's about staying in employment or self-employment.
So someone comes along after I've worked since I was 15, what's that? 30 odd years. And they're going to give you this pot of money and you can have some help, but you've struggled for 30 years. So then you have to cope with the emotional fallout of that moment, which is massive. It is huge. Having the coaches there to actually sit you down and go, okay, I recognise that this has happened to you. I'm going to coach you through this. We always have disability impact Nurses who have come out the NHS, they're now private, who can take you through those moments where you're sitting there going, well, I've struggled all this time and I've managed, I don't need help. Oh, I do need help because I've struggled all this time. Shit, what do I do? And I think that for us as an organisation is the key piece. We'll fight and fight and fight to get what you deserve and what you're entitled to, but there will help manage, manage and manage the outcome and the fallout of that because its massive, its life changing. Huge.
Becca Brighty
And I speak to a lot of people who seem to have some sort of guilt around access to work or the government's given me all this money, but I'm not really disabled. I'm not disabled. I've managed to get, I don't deserve it position. A lot of a ADHDers is they're not living to their potential, but they're doing really, really well because they're very, very impressive,
Nicolo Jane Little
Absolutely and have given into society. And a lot of us are caregivers, so a lot of us will be in vocational jobs. A lot of us are teachers and nurses and all these things. And we care so deeply for other people that that's what we're there for. And in fact, if I think across the whole of our community, I do not know very many people who aren't in some kind of vocational piece of that helping someone else you what you are doing, helping people in their business, helping them. There are so many of us. And to then think, well, no, I'll get through. It's all right. But you're ashamed. You've gone into shame spiral. You can't possibly ask for help. You can't accept help. You don't deserve help. Oh, dear me. How do you fight with that when you know that you could live your potential?
My potential is being realised now because I know what's happening. Up until three years ago, I was alright and I was cracking on and I worked with hundreds of people doing all of this stuff, but it wasn't my potential. It wasn't close to my potential and I'm still not there yet. And I don't actually know what my potential is because it's a word given you by school. Your child is not reaching their potential in their report. Your child is a little bit distracted in their report. We are told about our potential when we're very, very small with nobody explaining what the hell that means. It's just a word and it's difficult.
Becca Brighty
So in terms of how it feels, so this is something that completely resonates with me of feeling stuck. So that's why I've set up a DH ADHD impact as a podcast and as a business is this, I felt like in the rest of my life, my relationships, my friendships, my, I've got lovely family, great husband, lovely kids, but my career always felt stuck. I was doing all right, like you say, but it was always hard. How would you describe the difference of how you were working before versus how you work now?
Nicolo Jane Little
So it was chaotic before and now it's controlled chaos. And there was a very big difference when you are controlling your chaos versus you are just in chaos out of control. So what we have established, so for those of you who don't know, celebrate difference, our entire team are neurodivergent in one form or another. So I don't know, 11 of us, we all need a level of chaos to perform. So we work at a higher, faster, bit more chaotic rate than most. And I've worked in many different places, so I know the way we work is unique, but there is a difference between finding out that sweet spot where it's busy enough to stop you getting bored and your charge and about doing good stuff versus utter chaos. And I was chaotic before I got through. I did more right than wrong or else I wouldn't be sitting here with you now.
But now I do a lot more right than wrong. So being able to go, actually, if I am talking to six people at once on LinkedIn and I'm doing this and then I've got this and I've got this and that's how I work, that's how I work best. But I can't do my admin and I do the diary, so I'll pass that to someone else. But equally, I get really tired of people saying, slow down. Oh my gosh, I can't slow down. I don't want to slow down and I can't slow down and I don't want to slow down how you think I should work, but how I know I have to work is at the speed of light, but not any more than that. And you have to work out your sweet spot. You have to work out how much vibe and energy and stuff it has to happen around you to make yourself work at your best. I accept the tired piece with that, but what I can get done in the morning is like nobody's business. Do you know what I mean? So it's hard work though working that out. And again, this permission to allow yourself to work in the way that you need to work.
Becca Brighty
Oh yeah. Since I've been diagnosed and I've come back to work, I'd say compared to what I was doing, I do at least four times more work now. At least in way less time.
Nicolo Jane Little
Absolutely
Becca Brighty
And I finished my working day. I'm not exhausted When I finish work, I finish working and I actually want to do stuff and I'm like, eh. I used to look at people and be like, you're making plans after work. What's wrong with you? Why are you not just going home and feeling exhausted until you sleep? You're allowed to go to sleep. But then understanding now and this executive function marathon that I described and taking breaks and doing things like, so I've got this diffuser, having things that calm me down and keep me in my body rather than this constant racing. And like you say, that narrative at school of needs to try harder, needs to concentrate more For me when things were going wrong, I wasn't achieving enough. It was like, must try harder, need to concentrate more for me, I needed to do less. Just interesting the difference
Nicolo Jane Little
Change in narrative. What does try harder mean? Does it mean do more of what that person is telling you to do? So you've written two pages, you need to write a third page, or you haven't sat still for long enough. What does try hard mean? It is their perception of what hard is. It is their perception of what lazy is. It is their perception of what enough or not enough is for us as ADHD is in a school environment specifically, we are trying harder than any other kid around us who is not with a spikey brain because the effort of even being there is so hard. And I have this with some family at the minute, try harder. They've got to try harder. They're try so damn hard just by being there and you have no appreciation of the work it is and takes just to be there in that situation when you are sensorially slammed with the lights and the noises and the smells and the banging and the teacher saying this and 62 instructions and you've forgotten the first one by the way.
And even with little kids, go here, take your wellies off, hang your coat up, then come in, then sit down on the mat, right? So when I was teaching four year olds, you're giving kids a list of what you think is really basic instruction, but the six or seven or eight instructions, well, if you're going to take two instructions in, take your coat off right now, you've got your coat off hanging up right now, you've hung your coat up, come through this door, now you're through the door, sit down, you give those kids that list of instruction, they can't remember. And then what happens is they get wrong, they've gone off and they haven't tear.
Becca Brighty
They've till got their wellies on and they've still
Nicolo Jane Little
Got their wellies on and they diggy dancing a bell because they can't remember. This is life for kids who are new or spicy and then they get told to try harder. I feel like I need to apologise for all of the education system right now because it's really wrong,
Becca Brighty
Even I know I do. So I'm quite cautious with my daughter Lily, because she's definitely wired differently. I don't know in what way, but
Nicolo Jane Little
Beautifully and celebrated.
Becca Brighty
Oh, she's obviously, she's absolutely wonderful joy to be around, but I do when you get in the house, just take your car off, put it on the hook, take your wellies off, and then she goes into the house with the wellies on and I'm like, darling, why have you not take your wellies off? I told you to take your wellies off. But that's such a good point of
How many instructions have you given her? And it seems to me, even as an educated person who's working in this, that seems just reasonable. But that's such a good point. And then she's probably feeling bad about herself and I'm saying, darling, it was just a simple thing.
Nicolo Jane Little
Don't remind us again, Mam. I can do it Mam. So if you think about those moments, they've got all that world that is distracting them as well. So you stand there, I dunno, maybe you've come in from school, you stand having a look around, you're little, you're pleased to be home. You've got all the smells and all the niceness, and you are entirely distracted by this wonderfulness hopefully of being safe at home with six or five or four instructions to do the things that should be just normal. But what happens if you don't want to take your wellies off because they make you feel nice? What happens if your coat is so snugly and comfy? You don't want to take your coat off. You've been told three times to take your coat off. But if you've got sensory issues and your coat's nice and tight and keeping you warm, why would you want to take your coat off?
So this language we use, and I love how you explain executive function because, so the other day I had a conversation with my husband along our corridor at work. I was going the shop to get the tea to do the stuff right? Go at the shop, Nicola, I have a lock up, Nicola, you get the curry stuff down the road and I'll say yet home, walked to the end of the corridor, walked into the car, drove home, had not remembered in the four seconds from that end of the corridor at the other end of, so how it impacts life, this stuff is we had no tea. I hate chopping and I hate food and I've got loads of issues with both. But it took me to turn around to forget the level of instruction I'd been given and the agreement we had made to get tea took us to turn around to forget.
Imagine those kids who are the same as us. You turn around and you've forgotten what's being said. It's a basic human function to eat. I just drove home and I was ringing him going, well, I've come home, I've got no tea. And he's like, right. Oh, I'll just go to the shop then. And he's so patient and so beautiful and brilliant and I love him so much because there's never any judgement . And we live in a world where we're judged all the time. But imagine at work, you're given a couple of instructions. You have turned around, forgotten it, and you let work down. You don't finish your tasks. And the ramifications of that are massive.
Becca Brighty
And you're doing it from, it's been doing this since you were young, being constantly,
Nicolo Jane Little
Constantly, constantly told. Constantly told. Or someone's always got your back. Someone has always body doubling your parents, your aunties, your friends. Someone was always there to tell you at school. I had a friend who brought pens and pencils for me because I could not get to school every day with the right kit.
Becca Brighty
That's so sweet.
Nicolo Jane Little
Was going every day. She just brought double. I mean it's Sweet. But also you would assume that after all your years in education, you'd managed to bring a pencil and a projector and a thing. Nope. It never occurred to me every day to take them. So she had stuff ready for me. Have you got one of these? Yeah, here's yours. But then you feel daft, you feel stupid, you feel honestly, you just feel that, that pressure of trying to get it right. If I have to remember to take me pens and pencils, what else would I have forgotten? Well, just with a bag probably.
Becca Brighty
Yeah and it comes back to that perfectionist thing. So I was talking with someone else I know from these ADHD field and we were talking about perfectionism, but it's easy to see how you can slip into it when simple things, you're doing it wrong all the time. So then you're becoming this really vigilant about everything because you could make a mistake at any second. Look really stupid, get told off, be shamed, feel shame yourself. You've just been going through it for so long,
Nicolo Jane Little
For so long. It is just like, it's something I can honestly say I've never been trying to do or never acknowledged perfectionism. I wouldn't even know what that I live in the opposite of. I just know I'm going to get shit wrong. But I'm really comfy with that
Becca Brighty
Probably now when you look back, you've always been like that.
Nicolo Jane Little
No, not at all. Not at all. It's broken my heart. All the things I've done wrong all my life. Now I'm just like, yep, nah. Yep, I'm not going to get there. Yes, the instructions that you sent for this were extraordinary. There's no way I could have ever sent a list of instructions that you did to me. But Ashley did.
Becca Brighty
I have Ashley to thank, I edited them.
Nicolo Jane Little
I was Going to based on her, right? But I mean Ash as well, saw the instructions. Marvellous. And I read two lines of them. There were that many pages, and I've got my arms up to the ceiling now. Then I didn't, I scanned it, couldn't look at it, and I found the absolute bit I needed.
Becca Brighty
So that's why I put in the email to you. I know these instructions are really long.
Literally these are just the two things that I need to know about.
Nicolo Jane Little
And that was perfect adjustment for me. I'm going to ask you this, this get here by this time. And the piece, I've looked at it about six times in it. Was it 11 o'clock? Was it 11? I think it's 12 o'clock. It it's 11 o'clock. No, it's 11 and have to be here an hour early. So I've been downstairs for 40 minutes.
Becca Brighty
Oh really? Wow
Nicolo Jane Little
Late. Can't be late. I couldn't be late for anything. Oh, oh my God. That's
Becca Brighty
Amazing. So with this lifetime of having to do things differently, what are some of the real strengths that you see in ADHD?
Nicolo Jane Little
My God, I haven't got enough time, honestly. Honestly. The joy. The joy and the quickness And the empathy. The empathy. Can we just dismiss the notion that autistic people and people with adhd, whatever, have no empathy? I have seen empathy, nothing else in my team, the way they care, the way they think, the way they look out for the things that they notice that you'd never noticed. It is almost like childlike because little kids notice everything at their level, which is down there. And we stopped seeing it as grown up. So you have to get down at kids' levels to see what they see. And the way my team see things, it's just extraordinary. The speed at which we can work, the diligence when we're on it. So when it's our tours and nominated perfect thing, I mean the effort and the graft, it's just endless.
The list of things to celebrate are endless. The kindness and the compassion. Proper human stuff. Proper human and without judgement , mostly just acceptance of other people. Because we are in this world that all we want to do is help. So we're not going to judge you and it doesn't matter what you look like and all of that kind of stuff. We're not perfect at all. But I refuse to live in a world where all I see is our difficulties. The team that we've built around us, or half of them didn't know they were ADHD by the way, until I got there, but never mind moving on. It's just exemplary. It really is. There's so many positive things that when I hear people, out of all of the stats that you read, ADHD is the least likely to get employed. They're at the literal bottom of the pile. Misunderstood. You think people are going to like, I dunno, be seven and bouncing off the walls or whatever it is. People do assume we, me I'm the least likely to get employed or want to be worked with than any other type of person. And yet look at what I've done and created with the people who I've created with. You're missing a trick, by the way. If you're an employer listening to this and you're scared of employing people like me, bloody great. Oh yeah,
Becca Brighty
Yeah. Oh absolutely. So for me, now I see ADHD as a reason I would want to work with someone. So for example, I had a baby 10 months ago and I was looking for a doula, which is basically a coach for giving birth. And I spoke to a few different people and then I spoke to this one girl and she tried to call me on WhatsApp and I messaged her saying, and I don't have all my notifications turned off so I don't get calls on WhatsApp. And I said, oh, sorry, I didn't see you call. We'd like arranged a time. I was like, sorry, I didn't see you call because I've turned all my notifications off. I have ADHD and they distract me, so can you just call me on the normal phone? And then she rang me and she was like, oh, I have ADHD too.
And I was right. Okay. So for me, I was like, you are going to be so caring. You're going to be so dedicated to any issue that I have. I knew she would just research it and she would want to find the solution to any, and I had very complicated pregnancy, so I was like, you'll want to find out all the solutions. You won't rest until you have, you'll be so caring, so compassionate. She was so interesting as well. And one of the things I find with a lot of a DH ADHD is they're really funny. So if I'm going to be in the hospital with you for maybe two days in a really bad situation, ejecting a human being from my body, nice. I probably want to be with someone who's quite entertaining.
Yes, a hundred percent. And so now in terms of the people I want to work with, there are some things where I think you've got ADHD, you're probably not the right person for this. It's very attention to detail. Or we would be just end up talking for the whole day. We should definitely certain things where I think, yes, it's good, I want to work with neurotypical people, but for me, I see so many strengths now in myself, in all the people I coach that I'm just like, if you have any ADHD, you're already so far ahead of anyone else I would choose to work with because of all of the strengths that it brings with it. And I was speaking with somebody recently and they said, oh, and they're a really creative person. And they were like, oh, I think I might have ADHD. And I was thinking, oh, I hope so. I really want to work with you and it'll be even better. You're really good. But it'd be even better if you did have ADHD. I just see it now. And I think two years ago I didn't know really. I was one of those people who probably thought like ADHD is people's jumping out of planes and they can't sit still and setting fire things. That was probably my as assumption.
Nicolo Jane Little
There’s an assumption, I've done that although I do like a bit of flavour,
Becca Brighty
I'm terrified of heights, absolutely terrified. I'm not jumping out of any planes.
Nicolo Jane Little
Saying that I set me hair on fire in the bath on a candle. So I'm saying I've never done any fiery type things. Talk about executive misfunction, set this candle, put it behind me, head, lay on it, set me hair on fire, squiggle down into the water. I was in the bath. So that was okay. And then kind of sat there going, how did you even forget? You lit the candle straight away and then you lay in it well done. That was a prime moment.
Becca Brighty
We've got short hair, just for safety.
Nicolo Jane Little
Hair smells. If you ever set your hair on fire, it smells and has a very distinct smell. Anyway, moving on.
Becca Brighty
Yeah, so I think that that is something that is becoming more into the fore of what are the strengths of ADHD is. But I think if people could genuinely understand it and see all the strengths, then ADHDer’s would be the most employed, not the least employable.
Nicolo Jane Little
So here we flip this round. If our assumption of a set of people is the list of deficits, why? So we don't have an assumption of people who have neurotypical brains as a list of deficits. So why is there an assumption out and about that people with ADHD are this and therefore that, where on earth does that come from? Because you don't look at a human being and think of them as a list of deficits. And yet people like me are a list of deficits. You can't concentrate, you talk too much, wiggle in your hands all the time, too bossy. I mean, people see people like me as a list of problems, but you don't look at other people with a list of problems.
Becca Brighty
Imagine if it was like, right, well, you've not phone neurotypical and say, well, you've not got enough energy, you're not as creative as some people. You're not as empathetic. You can't hyperfocus. So I'm sorry,
Nicolo Jane Little
Exactly that. Exactly that. So if you take the opposite, it doesn't make any sense, does it, just makes no sense to make a sweeping judgement . Although this is the world over and I don't want to talk about that. I'll never stop. Why do we make these sweeping judgements on certain sections of society? It's a much bigger global conversation. But to assume people like me are a list of problems, you don't know me. You don't know what I'm capable of for head flick,
Becca Brighty
Never. Even though I take a very strength-based approach, I've never thought about how insane it actually is.
Nicolo Jane Little
It's not common sense when you flip it. I've sworn a couple of times flip the shit. When you flip it around from the other perspective, it makes very little sense to judge people on the list of negative deficits. And you don't look at anybody else, the rest of society in that way, but therefore disabled people. And I know a few wheelchair users, that's all that's seen. I see your wheelchair, therefore you can't walk. And before you even know the name, you've judged a person on what they can't do. Why?
Becc aBrighty
That is really awful when you think of it like that. So one of the things that I mentioned at the start is about the difference that access to work has made to me and to my life. Could you just tell us a bit about what access to work is and why you thought that was important for Celebrate Difference to help people with?
Nicolo Jane Little
So there is a pot of money put aside by the government to help those of us with additional needs, disabilities, physical, mental health, whatever it is to stay in work, to be employed, to have meaningful, meaningful employment. Now, what this money is designed to do is to help you where you struggle and those struggles are, it is not like because you've forgotten a couple of things and you think you're a bit forgetful. This is about real life struggles on a daily basis that you can't fix if you tried for love, no money in our world, but for every gamut of every kind of disability going, this pot of money is there and you make an application and you have workplace assessment and you have to talk to the advisors and you have to tell them everything that's wrong within what you can't do. And then hopefully at the end of that, the outcome is a coach, some kit.
And if you really look at some face-to-face support. So it's a five month process, at least from start to finish, it's heroin. And I think I would use that word, it's heroin. So what we do is we take people through every single step of that process and look after them to then fight. And we do fight an awful lot to get the outcome that we know we are deserving of. If you imagine everything that you really struggle with, and I mean I dunno, really, really properly struggle with those workplace support people are there to help you do it. And if you absolutely can't do it, to do it for you. But the split is, it's something like 80%. I won't have all the facts, right? Although Joanne Stanton who you definitely must talk to would have all the facts, right? She's our absolute expert on this.
It's something like 80% support to facilitate you to achieve in your work 20% if you absolutely can't do it. So I absolutely can't manage my diary. It doesn't matter hard how much of it I will triple boot myself. It's just a nightmare. So I have someone to do that. I'm going to do next week, yay. Hello Lindsay. Someone to actually take that function away from me, I can't get it right. And then I look like a right fool when I've triple boot myself and someone and everybody's important and blah, blah, blah. But there are other things that those support workers can do to enable me to do stuff. I mean, I'm never clearing down the 6,000 emails, but if someone was sitting next to me and body Dublin me, I'd have a better chance of getting the really important ones actioned. So the access to work is all about enablement for you to be employed, self employed and to thrive.
Becca Brighty
So you describe the experience as harrowing. Yes. What do you mean by that?
Nicolo Jane Little
Imagine that you've got a very short attention span and you can't decipher notes very well. And actually filling in a form is really difficult for you. And you go online and they're asking for everything you need your date of birth, you need your address, you need this, you need that, you need all this detail. And that's just the first page. It's not a system that has been designed for people with difficulties. So you need help to pull that report together to say what your challenges are. You need help to tick the right boxes. We need the practical operational practicalities of filling an application are really challenging for ADHD as neuro divergent people because it's just not set up for people like us. The waiting time, imagine you're sitting there and you've got to wait five months. I mean, I can't remember how long yours took.
On average it's five months to be given this decision that could actually change your working life. How do you manage yourself for five months waiting around for that? Am I going to get it? Am I not getting it? Am I worthy? Did I answer it right? Did I put the right, did I put enough in? Did I put enough in? Then part of the process is your workplace assessments. So someone has to come and if they come out, they'll measure you for a chair, for example. Or they'll look at your work and environment. Otherwise they're having this conversation on Zoom you to remember what you put in the reports to then tell this person what kind of kit you need. Well, are you going to remember what you said three or four months ago? It is not fit for purpose. It absolutely isn't. And many of the advisors that we talk to on a daily basis simply do not know the whole rules of this grant as well as our Joanne does. So they will say no often, and she will say, well actually on page 42, paragraph 31, this is what the ruler is, she's absolutely,
Becca Brighty
I think she might have done mine with me.
Nicolo Jane Little
She's extraordinary Yeah, well, her knowledge, her hyper of focus is on getting it right. And so often Joanne will, and she wishes not for this, but she will know more than the advisor from DWP who's making the decision on the yes or no. So our service is there to fight and fight and fight and get people through it and to get what we are entitled to. So it's not pleasant. Now I know loads of people have done it themselves. There's no way on this earth I would've got my access to work through if I'd had to do it by myself. No way. A hundred percent no.
Becca Brighty
Yeah, me too. No way. And not the same things. So one of the things that now you're saying about Joanne knowing everything. So I have an issue where I have an office and then I also have a home and I never wanted to take my computer and stuff from my office to my home. Then I might forget to take it back.
Nicolo Jane Little
It will end up on the post going round a field or somewhere.
Becca Brighty
Exactly. And so when I was on the call, I explained this and I was saying, I can't do work at home, except if it's on my phone, then that's really fluffy and I've also got this back problem. And it was so thing. And then the girl said, and I was saying, could I get another computer? And then I would be able to have one in each place and I wouldn't have to have this anxiety around moving them and also setting them up for me for some reason feels like this massive thing. Massive. And then that's blocks me from doing work. And so the girl was like, oh, we could give you a bag. And I was like, I've got a bag. Thank you.
Nicolo Jane Little
Thank you. Anyway,
Becca Brighty
Thanks for the, it's not the actual transporting it, it's the fact, it's the anxiety around it, it's the reset and it's all these mental blockers. And then Joanne was the one who said, this is part of having ADHD. She actually can't, it's not just in a head, she can't do this. So I think based on that, you should be able to get another computer. So then because of her, if I'd just been that myself, I'd have been like, well, I don't need the bag.
Nicolo Jane Little
But it doesn't matter, then you're not going to give us it, so it doesn't matter.
Becca Brighty
I’ll just buy it myself or whatever. Where she was able to help me with that. So that was really helpful. What about in terms of the emotional experience of it? So what about the people who you're talking to at DWP? Are they trained in neurodiversity?
Nicolo Jane Little
I've got no idea. I'm going to say not. I mean, based on our current and absolute experience over two years, look, I've got no idea. I dunno what DWP KPIs are or how much money they've got or what the budget they've got off the government or what people on the phones are doing. We only can understand our side of it. So our side is to know as much as possible to make sure as many of them go through as possible. And that's all we've got. Because you only get a couple of goals if you do it wrong twice, you never get it.
Becca Brighty
Oh, really?
Nicolo Jane Little
Yep. Oh wow. Yeah. There is only a couple of goals and so you've got to get it right. And I would love to go on a DWP and train all of the staff on the phones that you are making life changing yeses or no's for life changing purposes for people who you actually want to be able to work in society. So if you give them this bit of help, it'll be better. So didn't be so easy to say no, but I can't talk for them. I know our experience with some of the advisors, their gorgeous man, the people, all people are lush.
Becca Brighty
Mine was, my person from Dwb was really helpful, really nice.
Nicolo Jane Little
And it's like any part of any society, do you know what I mean? Some people are very diligent, some people are kind of there for just being there and some people aren't.
Becca Brighty
And I guess it is a tricky one though. As you say, it supports so many additional needs. How can these people be experts on everything? But one of the things I liked about working with Celebrate Difference is I didn't feel like I had to apologise for saying, oh, I can't take my laptop home. Or I find it really hard to not get distracted when I go on my emails. That person at Celebrate Difference understands you don't feel as stupid. And I found that really valuable part of the experience.
Nicolo Jane Little
And that for me is really good to hear because our lived experience allows us, I think, to better fight for our clients, to put ourselves genuinely in our client's shoes, to work on their behalf, to be their voice, to advocate in every inch of our soul because we have the same problems. I have two computers, I have two computers for the same reason, and I've stopped going in the loft. So now I've got a lovely computer that's ugly wasted. So I have two computers because the idea of unplugging one, getting it in a bag, getting it home, taking it out and unplugging it. I mean there's five or six or seven or 12 steps. It ain't going to happen by the time I've got home and walked into that environment. Well, you've got all the other distractions of being at home that are far stronger than actually going up to the loft and setting your computer up and finding the cable that I've lost and oh, it's plugged in, have what's gone wrong and have you left it in the car?
So my gorgeous friend, Gav, if you're listening, I did two training sessions, three, I think three times. I have taken my kit to stand in front of a room, an audience in one case of over a hundred people and didn't plug the computer in and didn't have a cable. And he has in panic twice gone and run and bought me another one, legged it for us, gone and bought us another cable. And I was presenting in front of a hundred people and it died. And he legged it to the cupboard, got my cable and plugged me in. And what a foolish, like you feel so stupid because a computer clearly is not going to last all day if it's not charged up. So you take the cable. Yeah. Where's the cable? I have got dozens of cables.
Becca Brighty
If anyone needs a cable Nicola has..
Nicolo Jane Little
Honestly, we have thousands of them, and then I'd have to find them. Oh, my days, dear. So I ended up with a spare of everything in the boot.
Becca Brighty
And that's all obviously cost,
Nicolo Jane Little
That's all. Yeah, of course.
Becca Brighty
Yeh the cost of having it hmm so we've run over
Nicolo Jane Little
Are we way over time?
Becca Brighty
Yeah.
Nicolo Jane Little
Half an hour to make sure you've got 45 minutes.
Becca Brighty
No, I said it was meant to be 45 minutes.
Nicolo Jane Little
45 minutes. But if you tell me there’s half an hour, because you know it's 45 minutes,, can run over by 15, but my expectation is set at half an hour.
Becca Brighty
Perfect. There's a little tip as well. So my final two questions I ask everybody. So the first one is, what would be your number one tip would you give to those employing people with ADHD to help them to achieve their potential at work?
Nicolo Jane Little
When you interview people, look at them for the strengths. Full stop. End of story. Do not be worried about the fidget on or all of the staff. Please just consider each human as a human with strengths, because otherwise they wouldn't be sitting in front of you being interviewed for a job. Don't be put off because you have a narrative that someone else has given. You Wait to meet the person before making a judgement.
Becca Brighty
That's great advice.
Nicolo Jane Little
Full stop for every human!
Becca Brighty
And what tip would you give to ADHDers as themselves to help them to make the impact that they want to at work?
Nicolo Jane Little
You've got to know yourself. It's really simple. If you're masking, and you might not even know this, if you do not know yourself, you cannot know your strengths. You cannot know what you're good at, truly good at what lights you up and what you're passionate with. If you're pretending you something you're not, you just can't.
Becca Brighty
And how do you do that? How do you find out what you're good at? How do you know yourself
Nicolo Jane Little
I guess through, okay, so through my lived experience, the things that always came out and every job I had was how much I just wanted to help people. So I took that as the first step. What I am here to do is to help others. Whether that was school children or people find a job when I was working in recruitment or when I worked in retail and I had to take all the returns back or what I do now, or train and people on social media or whatever. It was my core self and humanness is about helping others. And if that's there, I can pretty much do as long as I've created it, many, many things. But if I don't have that piece, then I just, what's the point of getting out of bed? So I think recognising the two or three things that are always there through every job that you do, through every piece, we did it as a team. So you go back through your last, however many jobs you've had, what is that core commonality coming through? What is the thing that you always must have? What is the thing that makes you feel like you want to get out of bed and bother? And then what are the jobs that allow you that? And don't be scared of self-employment because honestly, for those of us who need this level of control and freedom and be able to spark and work at three o'clock in the morning, self-employment is a really good choice of employment.
Becca Brighty
And then you've got people like you and me
Nicolo Jane Little
Then come find us, we are there to support you.
Seriously, come and find the other ADHDer’s because the absolute thing is when you've got the right community in your tribe, you can have a reit good time.
Becca Brighty
Yeah, no, it is, isn't it? It's all just life changing. So sadly, I could actually talk to you all day, but we have run out of time today. But if people want to know more about Celebrate Difference, more about you. Where can they find you?
Nicolo Jane Little
Celebrate difference.co.uk and all of the appropriate channels. Not TikTok, I'm too old, but Instagram or Facebook or LinkedIn are good places and it's Celebrate Difference ADHD. If you are an ADHD, please join our private group on Facebook because of some hellish conversations going on in there, which I do actually turn the notifications off for that one. Like yeah, just find the website, find us, have a look at us, come find us. We do events every single month, topic-based events that are really pertinent to how we can better live our lives and everybody's welcome.
Becca Brighty
Absolutely. That's great. And yeah, that event, one of your events was the first time where I felt like I didn't have to pretend and I realised what that feels like.
Nicolo Jane Little
It's funny isn't , it's weird. Isn't it, its hardcore
Becca Brighty
It was really strange being like, I've been, this is what it feels like. Not to pretend
Nicolo Jane Little
Not to pretend there's tissues everywhere. We're going to get some branded tissues. We've got to be everywhere for the inevitable crying moment where someone has a real moment and then feels embarrassed because they're crying and we're like, where? No man, everybody cries when they come to, it's like a KPI. How many people can cry when they come in front of us? Dever worry pet. It's fine.
Becca Brighty
Well, that sounds good. So if you want to help Nicola achieve her KPIs, come along to the hub of concept and cry.
Nicolo Jane Little
Noo that's not how we finish it. Although, it's true to life.
Becca Brighty
Okay, well thank you so much for your time, Nicola.
Nicolo Jane Little
Oh it's a joy. Thank you so much for inviting us and look how bouncy and lush you are, man. When it's right, ADHD are unstoppable, right?
Becca Brighty
That's where we're going to stop. Champion
Thanks for listening. If you want more information around this topic or details on the ways I support individuals in the workplace and help businesses to be more ADHD friendly, please go to adhd impact.com or follow me, Becca Brady on LinkedIn.
In this first episode of The ADHD Impact podcast I talk to Nicola Jayne Little, CEO of Celebrate Difference - A North East based business supporting ADHDers to celebrate their own difference.
Nicola was diagnosed with ADHD and Dyspraxia (DCD) as an adult, validating her knowledge of her own difference and instant affinity to those who are the same… but DIFFERENT.
🧠 Find out why Nicola thinks being diagnosed is the best thing that has happened to her career to date and how it is helping her work towards making the impact she has always known she has within her.
🧠 We talk about how everyone with ADHD (or any other “disability”) is entitled to thousands of pounds of support from the government and how you can apply for it.
🧠 We discuss how having ADHD gives people a massive list of strengths and the bizarre world we find ourselves in, in which people with ADHD are described as a list of things that they find difficult.
🧠 We consider the rollercoaster and the difference between using ADHD as an excuse and a reason for certain behaviours and why it has such an impact on our mental. Health.
If you want to know more about Celebrate Difference and how they can help you please visit https://celebratedifference.co.uk
To find out more about Access to Work please visit https://www.gov.uk/access-to-work
