Preferences, Masking and Getting to Know Yourself
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Becca Brighty (00:02):
Hello and welcome to the A DHD Impact podcast. I'm Becca Brighty, business psychologist and A DHD coach who received an A DHD diagnosis at the age of 34. I've since seized my professional training to understand how the A DHD brain functions and use that information to change the way I work. The purpose of this podcast is to help people to see how they can harness their A DHD brain so that they can make the impact in the world that they know that they can and to help those. Working with A DHD is to create environments that help everyone thrive at work. So today I'd like to welcome to the podcast the chief people officer at opencast, Kate Kelson. Welcome to the podcast, Kate.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Thank you very much. cca.
Becca Brighty (00:44):
So I wanted to invite Kate to come and talk to us today because from two different perspectives. So she is, as I mentioned, the chief people officer of a technology consultancy, opencast based in the northeast, who have a very interesting story and have grown massively and are from my experience of working with them, not for them, but with them very neurodiversity friendly. And so I wanted to understand why they care about that, but also how they've done it. But then also me and Kate had some interesting conversations around having different brains and how that then affects your career and intersectionality and all these different Interesting, well things that I think are interesting topics and so they're kind of the two reasons why I wanted to have Kate on with us today. First of all, what's your experience of for yourself around neurodiversity and how your brain works?
Speaker 2 (01:37):
I think I come from quite an interesting family where within my, so I've got two brothers parents and I feel like I was always quite aware that our brains all work quite differently. Both my parents are scientists, quite introverted, I'm quite extroverted and that I think I came to understand that quite early that we had different preferences around those kind of things. My older brother is really introverted, very detailed as a child, would read huge books at a young age and absorb all the information. That's not really my bag. I struggle to finish a book, let alone a dense sort of nonfiction book. And then I've got a younger brother who's probably somewhere in the middle. And I guess I found it really interesting how we were good at different things and also I think certainly for my older brother I'd have, there'd be people that might sort of tease him or tease me and kind of say, oh, your brother's a bit weird.
(02:30):
And here's a story I remember really well was we were on a school trip and we were doing a walk and it was probably three miles, but it seemed like this huge walk. We had remember 10 and eight or something and it was an adventure and so you had to put your own pack lunch in your backpack. So we get halfway through the walk and my brother has emptied out his lunch from his backpack to fill it with books. So basically he's hungry and the teachers are like, why have you emptied all your lunch out of your backpack? So I'm giving him half of my lunch and answering to these people that are going, why did your bother so weird? And I think maybe slightly protectively as a sister or just generally I felt kind of always, well yeah, he's different, but he's so good at things most people are not very good at.
(03:10):
It was really clear to me from a young age that has a value. So I suppose then for me personally then having kind of gone through different workplaces and environments where I would say there's probably quite a high proportion of people with different sorts of brains. I've worked in research science labs, I've worked in tech companies where it's known, there's quite high levels of autistic people that have managed to find a path in life, but they definitely identify as autistic who can thrive in certain roles. I am quite good at bridging people, but certainly it's something that I really enjoy is kind of putting people together where their different strengths can really create a lot of value, if that makes sense.
Becca Brighty (03:49):
And when we've chatted in the past, you've talked to me about the different environments you've found yourself in personally university and then doing a PhD in different places where you didn't have to do as much adulting. What we might all is the organisation, the cooking, those kinds of different things that some people like me find difficult and how that helped you.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
So for me personally, when I listen to conversations around neurodiversity and people's experiences, I identify with some of the traits of A DHD and I haven't pursued any formal diagnosis at this point anyway, but I have done some of online tests and things and they tend to say, oh yeah, you may have mild or moderate A DHD, which I find really interesting and probably then brings me closer and more interested into this world and want to learn more about it. I think what has probably been a common bit of feedback I've had through my life is that I'm very good at certain things, but then it might be framed as something like, oh, you're not very good at the common sense, something like that. Or the organisational skills or being on time or all of those kind of things. So I guess when I listened to other people who have got formal diagnoses talking, that's certainly a theme that people might talk about.
(05:04):
I think say for example, I was very academic at school, the things I didn't struggle with were definitely some of the kind of conceptual subjects like maths languages. I think I have high proactive cognition, so my brain works a lot and I think that can be quite beneficial to learning those kind of academic subjects for some people. So I then went to Oxford, which is obviously a very highly academic place and the setup there from a university point of view is like you say, quite low I would say on the adulting. So you live in a college, you turn up the room's there, the WiFi's there, you can go for three meals a day in college. There are many of the tutor and professors who live their lives like that as well with fairly, I'd say lower levels of adulting. But maybe that helps people to thrive who've got talents in certain things but perhaps are not say drawn to or don't find it so easy to do the things that are more common sense.
(06:01):
So I, one of the things I actually was thinking about when I was preparing for this is that term common sense kind of annoys me because I think it assumes that those things are easy. So because it's common, because it's commonly actually usual that someone knows how to get to a place on time or can remember to iron their shirt or can remember to put the packed lunchbox in the backpack, that's then assumed that if you don't do that it's just you're not trying or it's not because actually for you it's hard For me, I guess my experience, the flip side is I would never go around saying, well why can't you do that math problem that's so easy. That would be being a dick, wouldn't it? That would be really mean. And so I guess it's like you find this for me, it's a little bit of a double standard of like, well, what is common sense? Who gets to define what's easy and what is hard? My experience of the world is that that's very dependent on who you are.
Becca Brighty (06:52):
I want you to go around now starting shaming people for not going to Oxford that just like the
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Can you imagine,
Becca Brighty (06:59):
Well yeah, maybe I was late but also I got into Oxford so leave me alone.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
It is a little bit sometimes like that where it's like, and I think it's actually more like, but you are so clever, so why can't you just do this how I expect you to do it? And I remember having at work, I had a manager and we were walking after a meeting. So what happened was there was a meeting at nine o'clock, a client meeting and I was there at one minute to night for me. I was like, nailed it. I'm here one minute to night and we're ready to go for the meeting. I could tell he was bristling, he was standing outside bristling probably he'd been standing there for ten two thinking, where is she? We did the meeting. The meeting was fine. I think I was the one who'd done the content presenting meeting was good. We left the meeting walking to the tube and he's like, I could feel this tension.
(07:47):
And he basically just had a massive go at me for making him stressed out and I felt so upset. I was like, well you've never even given me any feedback until this point about the fact that you find it annoying. If you'd said to me, be there at quarter nine, I would've been there at quarter nine, but I am a just in time person and think it's those things where maybe just a slight difference in your preferences can lead to such a misunderstanding of intent. And I think that's something which I've heard again, people who've got neurodiversity kind of conditions that have been diagnosed. One of the benefits that they sometimes talk about of being open about that is that then people can make more allowances for some of those things. But I suppose it's a good question as to whether or not you have to have that level of comfort to tell someone that you have a condition because to some extent we could all just be a little bit more forgiving of each other as different approaches to things that kind of like you say, that shaming of people that can't do the common sense stuff or that find these things more difficult I think would be kinder as a society if we just don't assume what's easy for other people.
Becca Brighty (08:54):
Yeah, definitely think that's one of the things since I feel gone on a big journey of, I used to think I wasn't judgmental and then I went through some stuff and then went through on another leap of like, oh, maybe I was a bit judgmental before I thought my way was kind of the right way and then my diagnosis was this whole new thing of now of just like you don't know someone else's story, you don't know what people are struggling with. You don't know why people do what they do at all. So just having this really open mind I think is really helpful. And I do think, I find from my perspective, I was talking to someone the other day, they arranged a meeting with me on 10 30 on Friday and to ask me to come to talk about me doing a talk about A DHD.
(09:39):
And then at 1130 I opened my emails and there was an email from them saying, is everything okay for this morning? Like 10 40? And I was like, oh my goodness, I'm so sorry. And then I went on the call and I was like, I'm really sorry I don't usually work on a Friday. And it just totally went out of my mind, but I didn't go down this in the past I've gone down this massive shame thing of why didn't you set an alarm? You're not very good at remembering things so you're so unprofessional. Whereas I just was like, oh, I'm really sorry. It just totally slipped my mind a human being. And then they were like, oh, it's totally fine. But I think I was able to give myself that permission because of that. That's a known thing with the ADHD is having a bad working memory and also the timekeeping thing and be organised. But I do think they might have reacted differently because they knew that because just being an hour late for a meeting, it's just not ideal is it in any world. But that is one of the things for me of getting the diagnosis is just being able to be that bit kinder to yourself. But then if people are like, I dunno, don't make eye contact or are late for things or just cancel things at the last minute, I think I'm probably much more forgiving now than I ever have been.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
And I think it's interesting in terms of that effort of masking, I think I have definitely found periods of my working life quite exhausting. And actually the odd person has said to me things like, I dunno why you are finding it so exhausting me as if the actual work is not that exhausting. But it is things for me, meeting lots and lots of new people all the time. I mean to be honest, when I was a management consultant, lots of things about that job were just so challenging because it was changing projects, changing clients, different locations, different, there's a lot of professional scheduling and stuff to just getting the basics right on that. And I think now I listen to again, listen to this, some of these sort of traits or characteristics and I felt at those times it was specifically me and it was this frustrating combination of the actual work, the problem solving, the creativity, a lot of things that was being celebrated for were still good.
(11:55):
And I think about why do I find those other things? It appeared to me, I was finding it more tiring other people. And this may be a narrative of like, am I just lazier than them? Is it, what is it that makes it more tiring for me? And I think I've come to accept that more broadly, maybe less to do with the university as a topic just more broadly. Well I just need to do the things that work for me because otherwise I'm not going to be happy. But I think probably the journey that I'm now on is more to, rather than giving myself limitations, actually ask for a little bit more flexibility from other people, which requires more confidence. I hear from some people, like you say that actually having a formal diagnosis can actually be a really helpful part of that confidence. And I suppose I'm not, for me, the book is not closed yet and maybe I will look for that.
(12:44):
I'm not sure yet. I think sort of almost in some ways I'm almost, I've convinced myself that I belong to the community of people who've got a DHD albeit mild or moderate and it's helpful for me. Maybe I'll find that I would like some validation of that even if I do that and someone says, no, you don't, but you don't have a DHD. From a kind of clinical point of view, I still think the techniques people with a DH ADHD have will help me. So I guess it kind of either way it's helped me to realise that some of the things I have to work quite hard on are common to a group of people. They may not be common sense, they may not be the most common, they may not be the typical, but they're, I'm not a person of one who is just questioning why is this so hard for me? Which is quite liberating.
Becca Brighty (13:34):
And it's nice to know as well that there are all these other people who are intelligent people. That confusing experience, isn't it? I used to have this internal thing all the time of, but I know I'm clever, I definitely know that. But then being like, why is it so hard for me? Why can't I get ahead? Why does everyone else seem to find these things so easy? And then you're like, oh, there's this whole community of other people struggling with these easy adulting.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Yes, easy adulting. Yeah, exactly.
Becca Brighty (14:03):
And so how do you ask for those kind of accommodations or ask for that understanding or flexibility? What does that look like?
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Yeah, I don't think I'm an expert at this yet, but I think where I'm starting to come from is again, when certainly if it gets to the point where you can feel like someone's frustrated with your style or frustrated with the way in which you show up, I think it's trying to find the root to acknowledging that and saying, I can feel that you're frustrated or I can feel that this is a challenge for you. Can we talk about that? And then often what I find what that throws up sometimes is that they have assumed an intent. So you're always late for my one-to-one, and I find that really disrespectful or I find that really whatever the sort of intent, and then it's quite useful if you can even get to that point because that's the point where you can say, well, I'm really sorry because that was not my intent to make you feel like that, but also validate it and say, yeah, I get it, it's annoying.
(15:02):
But then you can explain that is for me, one of the things I struggle with and just try and build a bit of empathy is to maybe why that is happening. Whether that is just purely because busy, maybe that is just because you're not good at avoiding the distraction. If you walk to the loo and someone comes and says hello and then you're five minutes late, those kind of things. And so I think trying to get that empathy going as to I'm not trying to annoy you or I'm not trying to be difficult to work with. There must be a way in which we can meet somewhere in the middle. I think that's of how I'm trying to open up those conversations. And I suppose also being open to some of it has maybe nothing to do with neurodiversity or in that instance it could just be literally a different thing like, oh, I don't find it helpful the way you run the meetings or whatever it is.
(15:46):
But I think it's trying to open up those feedback conversations and then building that empathy as to what are the intentions about trying to make it a balance of, I guess not just the person who's less typical having to change, but realising that there's a choice on both sides about how you might be more flexible with each other. So yeah, I mean it is a live thing tomorrow and the next day I've got exec coaching day, so it's six of us in our exec team getting together and we are going to be going over some 360 feedback that we've all had. And one of my real themes is essentially, I'm sort of simplifying it a bit, but it's like Kate talks a lot and needs to be conscious of creating space for others and so on. And I completely recognise that. I think, again, when I do these sort of online tests, whatever around A DHD comes up as a common trait, this sort of verbal dysfunction almost all people talk about and not quite knowing when to take your turn or interrupting people that doesn't appear sort of typical.
(16:56):
So I think it's the kind of feedback that I find a bit frustrating because it's always been there and although I work on it, I think I get better at it, it will show up sometimes. And so I think with that one, there are some quite interesting words you use, which I find when I think about it, I'm like, I just a bit hurtful. But you have to, it's like someone used a phrase like hijacking, it's, for me that's quite a strong word that I'm hijacking their space, but that is how it feels. So I kind of, again, not wanting to invalidate it, but equally I think I want put that word under room and say, do you feel like I really am trying to hijack? Or perhaps there's a way in which, and the moment you could just say, Kate, you're doing that thing.
(17:45):
And then I'll be like, oh, sorry, I notice it. But just almost an acceptance that the intent is good and therefore it's actually about communicating and having those allowances for maybe if you're not on your best day, you might be more likely to do those things and almost have a language where someone can comfortably point out to you. You're doing it. Okay. Sorry, now I can bring that back in. So yeah, I think opening up the feedback, knowing where maybe some of the things that you're getting are linked to those traits or those special things about your brain that make it perhaps differently difficult for you than for others. And just trying to have an open conversation about that I think is how I want to approach it. And hopefully that will work with colleagues who I think all have a good intent as well. They don't broadly say, I don't think I'm in an environment where their intention is to say, you've got to be the same as all of us. It's just every so often they maybe by accident slip into that because that's what we all do when we're in the norm
Becca Brighty (18:53):
Kind of grief. And there is societal things that are kind of thought of as normal or to be expected. And then I think often when people get more senior, sometimes there's that charismatic leader. I think there still is some traces of that expectation around. And some of the things that some of my coaches talk to me about is this, who are quite senior and who are quite successful is this expectation from a young age. They were really intelligent, they kind of have an expectation on them and that they've known about since they were three on a subconscious level, they've known like, oh, everyone's telling me I'm like this special. And then often these people are also, they're getting A's, but they could be getting a stars. So then they've also got this thing of they're not quite achieving their potential and so they find that the academic stuff easy, but then the rest of life's kind of taken out of them, but they're having to pretend it's not.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Yeah, it's sort of a pressure to perform.
Becca Brighty (19:57):
So how do you think that impacts people? What's your experience been?
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Yeah, I think probably pretty similar in terms of I've definitely had very well-meaning people picking up on my strengths probably in a motivational way, sort of saying like, oh, you could do this and you could do that. And then I'm listening to that thinking about, I know I can't. And that limitation point is I'm thinking, but there's other bits of that that would exhaust me and that's it for me. A little bit of what I'm trying to unpack is almost like, well, maybe I could, but in a world or in a world in which I know what to ask for or I know how to explain to people what I find more difficult. So it's almost not to limit your ambition or your drive, but I think the other way that that's shown up for me is that in terms of I guess a pressure to give back or to lead or to have impact, I think my parents particular, they come from that they're scientists.
(21:00):
I did a PhD in science PhD, I kind of followed that path. It was particularly my dad was so passionate about it and that helped me to get passionate about it and be interested in it, whether or not I would've chosen that exactly if I hadn't had that. I suppose you can never know that. But I think now I look back and think it's almost a bit strange that I did follow science that far because I'm much more interested and passionate about psychology and people. And so that's probably where I've now found myself through a bit of a different route. But I think that pressure to use my strength to do something worthwhile be useful. My mom's very, she was a scout leader and I in that movement and it's always like, well, how do you help others? How do you give back? How do you do all of those things?
(21:48):
And so I think I've kind of put pressure on myself to achieve professionally, to try and find things which are scientific research is obviously about, well worked in a field that's about new medicines or that's useful. And then you're like, I'm not sure this is right. I'm going to go and work into business now. I'm going to help businesses change. I'm going to help a business that's nearly bankrupt, turn around and do all these things that are hard, right? They're hard. And I'm always questioning what the end value of it is. The way it's manifested for me probably to be honest, is that I've at times prioritise work over relationships outside of work. So I've definitely had friendship groups who have kind of gone, okay, it never bothers anymore, so we're now going to stop inviting her to stuff. And the reality underneath that is like, oh guys, I'm nearly burning out and all I'm doing is not replying to WhatsApp and not showing up on Friday night because I'm exhausted.
(22:41):
But I think it was harder for me at those ages to really explain that because again, there's an expectation of, well, Kate's capable because the visible my school friends, their narrative around me is that things are easy for me because the things we were doing together, the exams we were doing together were easy for me. Some of them that I'm still in touch with now, I think they get it more. They see more of the things that I find more difficult. But I think, yeah, there's been a pressure for me that it's manifested as if I've been close to being overwhelmed are dial down the effort on relationships outside of work. And now I don't want to do that and I'm trying to change that, especially I've got kids and you don't want your kids to be getting the kind of lowest end of your energy, but I do think that there's probably that pressure to achieve that led me to those conclusions of if I haven't got enough energy, well I'll do the work stuff over the social stuff.
Becca Brighty (23:42):
And so upon reflection, now, this is something I'm always interested in is what is the benefits of late diagnosis versus the cost to growing up in a society that didn't necessarily understand or accept neurodivergence versus a diagnosis as when you're very young, then you can, I think car your path with that knowledge. If you, I dunno, you're saying you don't know whether or not you have a DHD recognise traits. What kind of advice would you give to young you
Speaker 2 (24:15):
To young me? I think I would've probably tried to say, well, what do you really enjoy? Not just what are you good at, but what do you really enjoy? What gives you energy versus what gives you energy versus what takes it away? And therefore I think that's sort of how I have then taken quite good decisions in the last probably five years or so on. What should I do with my job now in that sense of that consciousness of what's taking my energy versus what's giving me energy. And then also to be honest, I think a little bit of just ignoring some of the feedback, just maybe not worrying quite so much about being tidy, organised, whatever things people kind of tell you are important to be. I don't think anyone's ever really given me an opportunity because of those things. No one's ever thought, I'm going to get Kate to do this because she's the most organised person because I'm not the most organised person they can find.
(25:16):
Say I was always, I think peddling quite hard to bring those things up to a certain level, which is maybe that's helpful, but better advice would be surround yourself by people that are really organised or just be open about that not being a strength and therefore be more confident that please don't give me this job if you think I'm going to organise your life for you. Because probably there's going to be a mismatch on either side. So know what gives you energy. Don't try and take everybody's feedback on board and be open about both what you're good at, but also what you find hard. Because actually a lot of people probably see that anyway and you thought you were masking it and you know what? They probably had it. A lot of them probably had it quite well figured out along the way, but just there wasn't that ability for someone to say, I get it, I see you.
Becca Brighty (26:05):
Yeah, my best friend, she used to get really, I probably still does get really frustrated with me. She's like, I don't, oh, you've forgotten this and you haven't done this and you were meant to bring the tickets and oh, you're late again. And I used to feel a bit like what? I am on time and I don't know what you talk, you are trying so hard and you are putting so much effort into it. The idea of I'd be like, Hey, I don't think that's fair kind of thing in my head, but just making a joke of it. And now I'm like, oh, the poor woman should be my best friend since I was five. She's dealt with a lot of chaos in her life. But I think it's difficult for you to it when you are trying so hard to fight against what's natural to
Speaker 2 (26:47):
You. And maybe, you know what I think, I dunno. I have this sort of memory for events where people have almost been telling me that they notice something and I think maybe to younger me, I would've said, well just ask them more about that. Whereas I probably shied away from it. Say for example, I had this amazing teacher when I was maybe 10 and she's my French teacher, and I really liked French. I really always liked languages probably because it was like the lesson where you were allowed to just talk. That was the lesson, right? Different language, but it was basically, and at that age it was like, so now sit next to your person and just talk about whatever it was. So I was like, okay, great. I mean it's got to be in French, but I can still basically just talk. So I liked French and she was a great, really nice teacher.
(27:29):
And then there was this weird thing that happened where I sat this place in the classroom, there was some wallpaper that was peeling off. And I think what had happened, I think was that I basically, without thinking about it, I was fiddling with it and I basically pulled a bit of this wallpaper off. So later that day it's like, who has been pulling off the wallpaper? It's like this big problem that someone's been vandalising the classroom. And I just remember thinking to myself, I literally initially was thinking it wasn't me, so I'm fine. And then I had this realisation, I was like, hang on a minute. I think I was sitting there, maybe I do remember now if I think about it. So anyway, so I went to this teacher, I said, and she said, oh, I did think when I was thinking about who'd been sitting there, I did think it might've been you, right?
(28:13):
Which for me is she probably totally noticed I was a fidgety, fidgety kind of slightly hyperactive from a physical point of view person. So she clocked that. But it was almost like I was like, oh is something, why did you think that? I think I thought a bit more, you must think I'm the sort of naughty person. He would do that thing. But she was very nice about it. She was like, once she realised it was me, I think she was like, oh, don't worry about it. Probably again, making those allowances, she obviously didn't feel confident enough to say to me or say to my parents or something, I've noticed this thing about Kate. Is that something that would help her to be still good at French, but less likely to rip off the wallpaper? Do you know what I mean? It's just that sort of a thing.
(28:58):
So yeah, I think it's a roundabout way of saying if I had felt like this space was safer, there are probably people along the way who I would've asked, why did you say that? And that would've helped me to get more insight, whereas I shied away from it. I've got another example that comes to mind, which is much more recent, which is in the last job I did. So my job was to basically in this management consulting firm, they wanted to establish a new office in Newcastle. I'd worked for them in London. So I was like, oh, this sounds fab. I can open an office in Newcastle. There were aspects about that job that were brilliant, but there were aspects, the adulting bits of it that I found really hard. I dunno, getting the lease organised and the administrative parts of it, all of the people recruitment loads of things like that was great.
(29:46):
Dealing with the Londoners and building the relationships, that was all great, but there were certain things that were more tricky at some point it was great. Again, I've learned more about myself now, so I thought I need to hire the organised person, but big enough now I've got the chance I can hire an organised person who can help me to run the office. So I hired this lady raise, and really interestingly, she was on a squiggly path herself. She'd been a psychologist, clinical psychologist, she actually worked managing a team of social workers. And so figuring out which social workers she gave on which family and how to look after all of that. So the role she came into do was a mix of managing the office and then being a talent manager. So for our consultants. So she was squiggling out of social care into a much more corporate environment. And so we became really good friends as well as working together. And we've got definitely some sort of complimentary skills. And she said to me at one point, and I was explaining to her how I manage something and she said, it's like you do CBT on yourself. And I was, I just like, what? Now? I read more about CBT and I'm like, oh yeah, that is kind of what I'm doing. But again, but she didn't, I suppose it's for people almost. There are still a, so what did
Becca Brighty (31:00):
She mean? So just for people who don't know CBT, it's cognitive behavioural therapy. So that's like reflect on understanding your thought and understanding your behaviour and changing it. Yeah. So what did she mean?
Speaker 2 (31:12):
So I think if I give you an example, it's like I find it difficult to plan regularly and often it takes energy. So I'll try and batch it up. So I will create space in my diary or time in my week at home or whatever where I'm going to sit down for an hour or two hours or whatever, and I'm going to go through all of these different emails and clashes and whatever and just sort it out because then it's like, it's still a bit painful, but it's like it's done and then I feel in control and it makes me feel better. The alternative is every time someone sends me a text saying, Hey, if you're on Tuesday, it's stressing me out. I can't just quickly remember, am I already busy on that day? Is that somebody's birthday? I don't hold that stuff in my head.
(31:55):
So I sort of have to just create it as a bit of a task list. And that's what I was explaining to her. I was saying, if you basically ping me multiple times during the week about meetings, I might kind of ignore you because I tend to batch it up. So it's like it was just a bit of, I guess a strategy. I found ways to manage that modern diary conundrum. But I think with her psychologist hat on, she was probably recognising that I find something hard that she finds easy and saying, oh, you've come up with a strategy and that's how you are coping. But again, I think at that time it was almost like the comment itself, I was like, rather than going, well, that's really interesting. Tell me some more about why you are saying that. I've probably just went, oh, she's figured out that I'm really, so I sort of retreated from that comment a little bit more. And again, she's a friend of mine now. She probably said it as well and didn't think about it again, but it lodged into my brain and now that I read about CBT being a really helpful therapy, it makes you think, oh, well, if I'd known that I could be asking someone to give me strategies, perhaps I would've got to certain things quicker or with less pain or with less fear that I'm going to get it wrong and disappoint somebody or whatever.
Becca Brighty (33:19):
Yeah, no, I think that is one of the gifts for me of the diagnosis is so I compare it to, might sound like a strange comparison, but did you play Super Mario?
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Yeah, yeah.
Becca Brighty (33:29):
So it was like I've had my whole life of Super Mario on hard mode, but I didn't know, I just thought it was playing the normal version, but now I've got that massive, that mushroom that makes you really big. So I'm just going through life. But I had the training of being on hard mode for 35 years, so now I'm just like, oh, I've got this big mushroom and now I know I can just do things so much quicker because I've just got rid of all the re I've put it onto easy mode now. That's just so helpful. But in terms of the feedback thing, so this is something that's I think tricky. So you mentioned 360, how do you feel, so 360, I have a, oh, I don't know about it. From how fair it is for people with things like a DHD and rejection sensitivity dysphoria. What are your thoughts as a human and as a chief people officer on 360?
Speaker 2 (34:22):
I think it's probably a better approach to try and create a culture where people take accountability for gathering feedback in a way that suits them. Setting an expectation that it's a good thing to do because I think if you get feedback, you understand that people's perceptions about you, and whilst that may not always be comfortable, it helps you to know where you are with someone or whatever. And therefore you can choose and you can choose to ignore it. You can choose to ignore it, you can choose to be unsure about it, you can choose to then do something about it or ask for some help or there's a layer of things. So I'm a big believer that feedback is helpful. However, I think it's most helpful if you feel like you have agency over how you get that feedback, who you get it from when you get it and you try and guide people to give it to you in the way that you feel comfortable.
(35:10):
I think people in senior leadership positions, I think 360 can be really helpful because no matter how good a job you do of trying to create a culture where people feel like they can give upward feedback, it's hard to get it. It's hard because people do feel a bit of trepidation giving feedback to people that have a position of authority. And I think this is maybe not uniformly true, but I think again, in those senior positions you can things in place for a ground scheme of things, a relatively small number of people that then if they're going to have that rejection feeling they're going to, well, how are you ready to catch that if they're going to get the feedback, if they're going to do a 360. So at the moment we're working with some coaches, so it's sort of preemptively explaining what the methodology is, explaining what it'll be like, and then when people have there nearly everyone, I think neurotypical, everyone has reactive bits of feedback and it can feel like quite a big wave of insight.
(36:07):
So I think that people need to be ready for it, volunteering to go into it, supported through it, but it can be quite an accelerator to help people to understand how they are perceived. And I think if you do it as a team as well, if people, again, if you've got the right supportiveness, everyone's kind of going through that together. So also it can open up some really good vulnerable conversations. I think 360 can be good. They've got to be done carefully, definitely just shouldn't be thrown around. I don't think they should ever be mandated. I think it's more give people the tools, explain that it's an option, but that for some people they might find it much better to ask people specifically. For example, just tell me what I'm good at. Don't tell me what you don't get.
(36:57):
I was chatting to someone about this actually who said to me, I'm really nervous about getting feedback. And I said, well, why don't you just say, I just want you to tell me what I'm good at and where you think you might be able to support my learning. Make someone not say what, just say, I think you're really good at these things and I think I could help you learn X. It's like, what an amazing thing for someone to offer to you. And so I think it's maybe around just trying to, if you've not really ever had much feedback before, or if whenever you've had it you've felt it's too sharp or it's not been helpful, maybe try and ease your way into it and see if you can find a path then being kind to yourself, but getting that perspective.
Becca Brighty (37:40):
Okay. No, so I guess you're talking about it needs to be done in psychologically safe and environment really rather than, I've worked in organisations before where it's like, oh, everyone's just going to do a 360 on everyone, and then you get this phone book and you just obviously go to the negative things first. And then there's not really, you don't, in the organisations I've worked, it's not like, oh, you've got really good relationships with everyone. So you can go and just freely ask them, why do you think people might be saying this? It's just like this thing where you're then going a spiral in your head, whereas you are saying to do it properly from your perspective, it's like wanting people up front saying if this is your choice, and then having a coach who's a professional in this situation to talk you through it.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
Yeah, I was listening to something over the weekend that was talking about how you can turn your inner critic into an inner coach, but that in itself requires self-belief. So it is helping people to realise, I think a lot of people who take feedback really to heart and it hits their confidence, it's often because they are quite critical. I'm quite critical, I would say of myself. I put myself under some amount of pressure. And so I think feedback often kind of hits me because it often is, I know that I know a lot of the things, maybe I don't know all of it, but I'm aware of the things that I do, which I'm trying to develop or perhaps change myself a little bit. Not completely, but just adapt. And so I think it sort of hits me hard sometimes because I'm just like, I know, I know, but it's not just because doesn't make it easy to be different or to adapt or whatever.
(39:23):
So I think it's about then maybe this is the sort of CBT type linkages. So if I know if I'm critical of myself, stop interrupting people and then every time I do, I've done it again. I wouldn't say that to a friend, I wouldn't say that. So it's that. Well, what would you say to your friend, and there are all these techniques out there. There's a book that was recommended by this podcast called Chatter. I can't remember the author's name, but I'm sure you'd find it. But it was to do with that disassociate yourself from that negative chatter. So what would you say to Kate? So maybe you would just say to Kate, well hey, why don't you do an interruption audit and just start tracking how many times a day you interrupt people. And it's probably like starting point might be 20. Well, if you get it down to 10, that's great, and maybe you'll never get it down to zero, but that's okay because people will still recognise that shift.
(40:16):
Or maybe there's certain contexts where you're going to really, really be intentional about that being the place where you're not going to do that. I think it's that trying to turn your inner critic in a coach and equally trying to understand that if someone can be bothered to write you feedback, they probably care about you. And so even though it might be clumsily said, written or whatever, and they're not a coach, they might not get it as well as a coach would. Can you turn their voice into a coach? Can you receive it as someone who's trying to help you to get better? And it's not easy. And you might go through, I think I tend to go through this cycle of feeling initially a little bit attacked, a little bit rejected, undervalued, and then I can build myself back up to go, hang on a minute, why have they said that?
(41:02):
And it's probably because they can see potential if I can adapt to that situation a bit more effectively and so on. So yeah, I think it's not easy, but it's so valuable if you can find a positive way to engage with it, and you can totally ignore some of it that it's also a really important point. I did have this really frustrating bit of feedback recently that said, Kate has a lot of these qualities, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But these are not leadership. I mean that in itself, I was like, oh, thanks for that. And then it basically went on to say what leadership is and things that maybe I don't do so well. But then it also said, I think that Kate should hide her superpowers. And I was like, no, what is it? But again, but this person is only one person and their view, I suppose, is that sometimes if you are showing your superpowers in a room, there's other people in there feeling intimidated by their superpowers.
(41:54):
Okay, that can be a true thing. I would say what was maybe not the good advice bit was so you should diminish yourself or you should change your superpowers to make others feel more comfortable. Maybe the better advice would just have been acknowledge that, talk to that person. Hey, I noticed that when you maybe feel like, if I comment on this, how do you feel? Ask them how they feel and try to work on the relationship. I really don't think people, especially people that have got different brains that make them very good at things, they should not hide those superpowers. But that's not, that cannot be, for me, that cannot be the right advice. So I think learning to have the confidence, which is not easy to do, to choose which bits of feedback are actually useful to you, that is important for everybody, but probably particularly people who are not feeling like they are similar to everybody else because you are allowed to disagree. You're allowed to take your own development path, I think.
Becca Brighty (42:56):
And how do you think that this experience that you've had, this lifelong experience from being very young of noticing different brains has influenced your job now to Opencast? I've worked with quite a lot of organisations. It's one of the most neurodivergent friendly organisations I've come across, and it seems very intentional. How do you think that experience over your lifetime has influenced how you are as a chief people officer?
Speaker 2 (43:25):
I think one thing I would definitely say is that before, so I've worked at Acast for two years. A lot of the culture predates me, so I wouldn't want anyone to feel like I'm claiming that it's all down to me that Acast has this amazing inclusive culture. Acast has an inclusive culture. I would say from its founding like 12 years ago, there have been values and aspects that have really helped it to be a place that people are open and supportive and caring towards each other. I think that's then that is one of the reasons why, I guess why I was attracted to it. And I think all the people that I met before I had even thought about going to work at Opencast or they're different. It is not like everybody is the same. See, there's not a type, there's not clear. The commonness is probably that kindness, that openness, that curiosity that I think made me always feel very much like, oh, that's a culture that I'm quite, I gravitate towards.
(44:28):
And then I think as the sort of societal conversation has really opened up around neurodiversity, I think Opencast has then just really picked that up. And internally within Opencast, there's amazing, there's a channel we have on our teams channel that's called Neurodiversity Matters. And there are so many interesting conversations going in there, some really positive, sometimes people are more frustrated about what's going on, but really kind of open. And I'm a member of that channel and people are very open in there and I'm a senior person in that channel. But for me, it doesn't feel like anyone is bothered about that in a good way. I have thought, oh, is it weird if I join the channel? Because maybe then that would create less safety. So again, I've just asked people, what do you think? And they're like, no, no, come in. It should be a place. That's the definition I guess, of being kind inclusive. So I think there's some elements that Opencast has always had in its values, and then there've been layers that have been happening since I joined the business that have then I think really helped us to stand out to people who are considering coming and joining us or who work for us and who have got neurodivergent conditions. I think one of those is we have people experience partners. So these are members full-time members of the people team.
(45:53):
So we are a consultancy and we have around 400 consultants who are out there working on clients all the time, and they don't have a traditional line management structure. So they'll have a professional lead. Let's say if you are a software developer or you're a user researcher, you'd have a professional lead who's from that same discipline who can guide you on professional best practise or point you towards resources for learning about how to do the skills that are specific to your role. And then you have a people experience partner who is there trained coaches, and their whole role is there to more help people figure out what the development plans are or maybe help them through something that's going on at home that's affecting them at work, or essentially a much more pastoral caring role. And so those, I think people who either are going through a diagnosis, they've had a recent diagnosis, or maybe they've had a diagnosis for a long time, I think that's one of the things they talk about quite a lot with their people experience partners.
(46:50):
And so we've then had people experience partner training for our whole people team. We have guest speakers like you, Becca, others coming in to talk to the business about diversity and just raise awareness, raise people's understanding of what that can look and feel like. And so these things kind of layer on top of each other. And then sometimes people are saying, well, hang on, I need more support. And we're open to things like investing in external coaching because our people experience partners are not expert coaches in a specific challenge. We are considering actually a bit a model. We may offer people with more specialist training, but again, to cover the broad spectrum of humans, you can't expect everybody to be an expert in everything. So I think we're just open to trying to have a really good level of understanding within all of our managers, particularly our people experience partners.
(47:48):
We've still got work to do there, so we want to keep investing in that. But then we're trying to bring external expertise in, and then we're really hoping that we can keep this openness that people have to talk about it. Because I think that's often one of the most powerful things is if someone who is open and talking about it, well then there's a door that you can go through if you want to and you don't have to. And it might take you a long time to build up to it, but where they are when you're ready. So I think we're in a really good place. I think we still have an ambitions to keep going. We are not going to, I guess, rest on our laurels. I'm sure we don't get things right every time. And I think it's also worth saying because our people are out there on client sites, they are exposed to other cultures and other norms, and that's sometimes what can throw up the challenges.
(48:41):
We can't create a bubble around people. They're exposed to the world outside, sadly. Exactly. Exactly. And so I think there's always going to be then that work to do to support people with things that we cannot control or reactions that we cannot, which I think is kind of going to be some of our work, really. But there was some great stories when I was preparing for this podcast, I put a message into that channel to say that I was preparing for it and some thoughts, and I asked people if they wanted to share with me any of their thoughts. There was a great story of someone who's joined Opencast just seven days ago, and they said they'd already had an open conversation with their peep and their professional lead. They've joined the channel and they feel like they're off to a flying start. And I thought, well, that's amazing because you haven't had to build up to that.
(49:31):
They've been from the off. They've just felt like, of course this is going to be an open conversation. That's amazing. Which is amazing. There was someone saying, well, I just feel like I have mask less. I'm less tired, I'm more confident. I don't feel like an imposter. And that's allowing me to really grow in my career. And that's someone I think who is, she's in her fifties, so she's, she's worked for a long time now and it's amazing to me to think, well, what's going to come now then? Because you're already brilliant, but you are saying feeling more confident than ever. So it is a bit like, well watch this space and see where she goes. And a theme of people talking about just feeling less isolated so they can's a place for them to, whether they are physically isolated. A lot of our teams do work from home quite a lot, but they don't feel so isolated because they're able to find people to talk to about these things. So I think, yeah, some great stories that made me feel really happy about where we're headed, but I think there's still obviously work to do to keep that going.
Becca Brighty (50:38):
Yeah. Well, it's great to hear that consciousness just like, oh yeah, it's really good now, but things can only get better kind of thing. I did have so many more questions about the how and the benefits about me. I'm conscious of time, so I guess I've just got two questions that I ask everyone. So what tip would you give to A DHD is to help them make the impact they want to at work in business and entrepreneurship? Would your number one thing,
Speaker 2 (51:04):
If you feel people around you need more of an education on your brain, don't be too shy to give them that feedback. So fortunately, now, I don't think you have to have a degree in psychology. You don't have to have read hundreds of books. There's loads of accessible content that would give them, it's sort like expect a level of psychological literacy. You should expect that of other people. Now this stuff is relatively science and so on, but it's there. And if that person to work with you to support you to have a good relationship with you, if they need to understand your brain better, tell them how they can do that and ask them for that first step. And I think that often will then lead to better conversations.
Becca Brighty (51:49):
Okay, great. And then my final question is, what tip would you give to people employing those with A DHD to help them to make help? The A DHD to make the impact that they want to in the workplace.
Speaker 2 (52:02):
Yeah, so I think raising awareness with your managers in organisations, I think it's a cliche of people leave a manager, not a job, but it's true. And I think it's not only managed, but if managers are getting more awareness of this and they feel it's supported to understand enough again of that literacy so that they can then not necessarily solve, adapt everything for the individual, just be aware. Then you're going to get a lot of things. I think off the back of that. So if you haven't started opening up a conversation with your managers around neurodiversity and how they should think about that for them in those roles, you really should not to just load pressure onto managers. I think I was thinking about this vision for a better world. It's like if you are, part of your role is coaching and managing and developing people.
(52:56):
Whether you're a teacher, you're a sports coach, you're a manager in a business, a level of literacy about this stuff should be a requirement. My view and employers are in a good place to make that investment on behalf of their managers, bring these things to people's awareness and also if they need to call out, if someone's not engaging with it. And if you don't do that, I don't think you can really present yourself as a neurodiverse friendly employer because no matter what you do centrally maybe within a people team, within a particular resource group, someone's day-to-day experience, that they're going to get less than they should get from a manager who hasn't got an awareness for what that means.
Becca Brighty (53:36):
Yeah, I love that. That's something I hear from a lot of the businesses where I go in and share knowledge around neurodiversity. The people within the business are so grateful all of a sudden got this opportunity to share. Whereas going to a company who've never even mentioned the word neurodiversity and talking about, oh, I've got a DHD or autism, or even things like dyslexia, that knowledge piece is really is the first key for people, the first thing for people.
Speaker 2 (54:04):
And I think if you need a reason to do it from a business point of view, I do think that, I think it can feel maybe overwhelming. There's so many different things to think about. There's race, gender, disability, neurodiversity, and there are so many things and they are all important. And most employers I think don't want to push away any particular area. I think the good news is that if you make adjustments in how you think about any of those things, you're probably helping everybody. Some of those other types of categories are a bit more straightforward to understand, not straightforward to do the right thing or to understand the full depth of which why it matters. But everyone has a sort of understanding of people look different or they have physical characteristics which define which category you might put them into for right, for wrong.
(55:02):
But there's an awareness of that. I think maybe the difference on the new university point is some people don't actually know anything, so if they don't know anything, then they're not going to be able to do any of the right things. So knowledge, awareness, bringing people in to help people build their knowledge, giving them the time to learn things. If you've got an operational manager, well when are they going to learn about this? Maybe you need to create some space for them to do that. I think knowledge amongst people that need to know about it is pretty critical.
Becca Brighty (55:36):
And I said that was my last question, but one last question just on that, what do you think the ROI, so the return on investment, it's not free a lot of the time to train all your managers or have these conversations and bring in professionals to talk about these things, but what do you see as the return on investment for doing that?
Speaker 2 (55:54):
I think teams work better together. So more and more, right outside of a new diversity conversation, you'll hear the things like multidisciplinary teams, collaborative working, getting out of silos, business partnering. All of those things are really around people that may be a bit less similar working together. It's no longer, well, there's the finance department and they all like numbers and they're over there and there's the HR department over there and they all like people and there's the scientists and they're all really clever at problem solving. That is all still true. However, we recognise more and more that people need to work together, that the outcomes are better, there's more innovation, all those things. There's more, and in certain areas like our business, we are expected to provide multidisciplinary teams. So if you can talk about how your brain works, how you think, how that differs, how you can work together, that is going to be for me, you're going to do better work.
(56:49):
You're just going to do better work. And so ROI, on that sense in our world, you're going to win more work with clients. And then on the, I would think of it on the cost side, you're going to have better retention. You're going to have better progression. You going to have, so basically your people costs are going to be lower. Your output for your clients and customers is going to be better. Why would you not do it? The only other option in my mind is being really, really good at hiring a certain sort of clonal type who work really well together. But then as soon as you expose them to anyone else, then you'll get this clash because you've selected a load of people that work well together, but they meet a client and the clients are like, these people are little bit different or they can't be flexible to us. Or you merge with another business. And there you go. There's a big culture clash there. So the world is very changeable. The people that are in our environments are very changeable. So if you can help people to be adaptable to that, to be adjusting to that, I think everyone thrives.
Becca Brighty (57:50):
And this is from a doctor who went to Oxford. So we all need to really take your advice and invest in knowledge on neurodiversity for organisations. So thank you so much for your time today, Kate. If people do want to know more about Opencast or more about you, how can they get in touch,
Speaker 2 (58:08):
Check out? We have a really active like LinkedIn and our socials. Obviously you've got a website where Opencast software. I'm on LinkedIn, so just Kate. Kate with a c, Kelson with a K, which usually confuses people, but equally means there isn't another one like that on LinkedIn. So that's fine. And yeah, I think just get in touch basically.
Becca Brighty (58:29):
Okay, great. Thanks Kate. Thank
Speaker 2 (58:31):
You.
Becca Brighty (58:34):
Thanks for listening. If you want more information around this topic or details on the ways I support individuals in the workplace and help businesses to be more A DHD friendly, please go to adhd impact.com or follow me, Becca Brighty on LinkedIn.
In this engaging episode of The ADHD Impact podcast, our host Becca Brighty, a seasoned Business Psychologist and ADHD Coach, embarks on a profound conversation with Cate Kalson, Chief People Officer of technology consultancy Opencast and an Oxford graduate.
🎙️ Join Becca and Cate as they dive into the world of ADHD, uncovering the benefits of diagnosis and its pivotal role in alleviating the stigma surrounding common ADHD challenges. 🌟
Cate shares insightful perspectives drawn from her extensive experience, shedding light on how diagnosis can help mitigate the shame often associated with ADHD struggles. Gain valuable insights into the draining nature of constantly masking natural behaviors and explore strategies for fostering empathy towards the needs and preferences of others. 😓
Join the conversation as we peel back the layers of perpetually masking our true selves.
Becca and Cate navigate through this enlightening dialogue, offering practical advice and thought-provoking discussions on embracing authenticity and cultivating supportive environments.
Don't miss out on this enriching episode! 📚
Episode Note:
Benefits of diagnosis in reducing shame around ADHD struggles
Exhausting effects of constant masking of natural behaviors
Strategies for cultivating empathy towards others
🧠 Insights:
Significance of authenticity in personal and professional spheres
Creating supportive environments for individuals with ADHD
📚 Connect:
Connect with Cate Kalson and discover more about Opencast's commitment to fostering inclusivity and supporting neurodiverse talent.
Follow Cate Kalson on LinkedIn: Cate Kalson's LinkedIn Profile
Visit the Opencast website: Opencast Website