Networking and Socialising with ADHD
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Becca Brighty (00:02):
Hello and welcome to the ADHD Impact podcast.
(00:04):
I'm Becca Brighty, business psychologist and ADHD coach who received an ADHD diagnosis at the age of 34.
(00:10):
I've since used my professional training to understand how the ADHD brain functions and use that information to change the way I work.
(00:18):
The purpose of this podcast is to help people to see how they can harness their ADHD brain so that they can make the impact in the world that they know that they can. And to help those working with ADHD'ers is to create environments that help everyone thrive at work.
(00:34):
Today on the podcast we have Jeni Smith. She is founder of NetKno and so Jeni is a networking strategist who is also doing a full-time PhD in networking.
(00:44):
Welcome to the podcast Jeni!
Jeni Smith (00:46):
Thanks so much for having me Becca, I'm dead excited.
Becca Brighty (00:49):
Yes. I wanted to get Jeni on the podcast because, well she's, as part of her PhD as a group project she's done some research into ADHD at work and also she's a networking expert.
(01:01):
And so I hear in my job as a coach from a lot of ADHD'ers is they have a lot of anxiety around networking as in what we think of as networking, but also about social situations or meetings or Christmas parties or attending different workplace functions.
(01:19):
And so I just thought you would be a great person to get some advice on this kind of thing.
(01:25):
So first of all, I would just want to know a bit about the research that you did.
Jeni Smith (01:29):
Yeah, yeah. Oh, I'll tell you all about it lass!
(01:32):
It was dead interesting, so the PhD I'm doing is at Durham University of the Business School, and it's an integrated PhD, which means year one is taught and then you get three years to do your own research.
(01:42):
And one of the taught modules was a team research project, so we got put into groups and it was quite earlier on actually. So it was a really nice way to get to know other people that were doing the PhD as well, which was good.
(01:54):
So I was in a group with two lovely ladies and we all have very different subject areas, so obviously I'm focusing on my research into networking. Amelia's focus is on imposter syndrome, dead interest in leadership specifically. And then Marissa is looking at stress indicators within the police force, very interesting as well.
(02:15):
So anyway, the three of us got together and we were like, they basically said, you've got nine months to do some research, it can be into anything, off you trot.
(02:23):
And we were like, ''Oh, well where do I start?''
(02:26):
It's like when it's an open bar and everyone is like, ''I don't know what I want. It's too much choice!'' It was like that.
(02:33):
So I'd recently been to the launch of Celebrate Difference, which is obviously a North East based charity for supporting people with ADHD and neurodiversity.
(02:42):
I'd been to the launch of that and it was not long post kind of lockdown vibes and there was a lot of stuff in the news about celebrities coming out with ADHD, and there was just a lot in general about it.
(02:54):
So I was like, ''Oh, why don't we do something around ADHD, the workplace in regards to someone at the Celebrate Difference launch actually had said this and it stuck in my brain and they'd said something about the fact that a lot of people with ADHD end up in entrepreneurship or starting their own businesses.
(03:12):
And the question kind of came about of, is that because people with ADHD are naturally, they're natural entrepreneurs or is it because traditional working environments are so rubbish for them that they end up with no choice?
(03:27):
And it was that kind of question. So we were like, ''Oh, let's explore this.''
(03:30):
So in true PhD style, we went to the literature, which is where you meant to start. So we went and started looking at seeing what other research had been done, and that kind of took us on this journey over the next nine months into this research project. And it was, yeah it was proper fascinating.
Becca Brighty (03:47):
OK, so what did your literature review show you?
Jeni Smith (03:51):
Oh you're asking now!
Becca Brighty (03:52):
Because there doesn't seem to be much, I had another guest on who was talking about that she'd done research into a ADHD at work, and I think she found like two papers.
Jeni Smith (04:02):
Yeah, there's stuff, there's a research that shows how much it costs employers billions because they're losing talent. There's massive issues about higher levels of sickness of people who have ADHD, whether it's diagnosed or self-diagnosed tend to be off work more.
(04:23):
There was a lot of literature and research around, there was bits, but not that much around job satisfaction and stuff like that and like links to it.
(04:34):
So there was definitely a gap, hence why we were like, ''Yeah, this is going to be an interesting research topic.''
(04:38):
So we started in exploratory in terms of methodology, so we started by doing some interviews with local entrepreneurs who have been diagnosed with ADHD.
(04:49):
We did a mixture of online interviews, in-person interviews, and they were all between an hour and three hours long because you get talking and stuff and just asking them their experiences from when they were employed because all of them had at some point been employed, whether or not they felt that entrepreneurship was something that they always had in them, they knew, they always knew they wanted to start their own business, which wasn't the case really.
(05:21):
And from those interviews, we pulled out some key themes that we then returned back into the literature to look at.
(05:27):
And that took us down the path of looking at a construct called self silencing. And really interestingly this morning I was on Instagram, as you do, scrolling, and there's a feature in The Times about self silencing like today, and I was like, ''Ooh, this is timely.''
(05:44):
Excuse the pun, but look at, let's have a look at this. So basically self silencing is a concept all around, it's usually applied into domestic situations, and it's usually women who tend to self silence in the home in order to keep the peace, essentially.
(06:04):
The idea is that they suppress their true emotions and true instincts in order to make others around them happy. In domestic situations, that happens a lot.
(06:16):
The problem is that it's not something that you can do sustainably over time, over long periods it causes depression, it causes anxiety, a lot of emotional mental health issues.
(06:28):
And the feature in The Times today was talking about how self silencing has actually been linked to now in new research has been linked to premature death to cancer. There's loads of different physical diseases that self silencing has been linked to. So that was a really interesting feature today.
(06:46):
So what we did is we took, through the interviews, we found that a lot of people with ADHD were self silencing in the workplace. That's essentially what they were doing. So we took that construct of self silencing and took it out of the domestic environment and applied it into the work environment, which was the next phase of our research. So we did a mass survey with groups of people who did have ADHD and groups of people that didn't have ADHD and asked them similar questions, and then we were able to apply this self silencing scale into that. So we tweaked it a little bit, which was really cool.
(07:20):
And we found that yes, people with ADHD do self silence in the workforce, which again, it's essentially masking their true emotions in order to please others around them to keep the peace, whatever it might be.
(07:35):
But again, it's not sustainable. So we believe that that is linked to long-term, low levels of job satisfaction, forcing people out of work.
(07:46):
There seem to be quite a lot of similar cycles that happened for people in the workforce. They'd get a new job, they'd be excited, they'd settle in. That self silencing would probably kick in, and then two, three years, they're like, I can't do this anymore. They're out. They'd leave. They'd find a new job, and then eventually four or five jobs down the line, they'd go, I'm out. I'm going to have to do this myself.
(08:08):
And then they'd start their own business, and that seemed to be a pattern that was quite normal within the ADHD community. I don't know if that's something that's come out from conversations with other people that you've seen.
Becca Brighty (08:21):
So I didn't ever enjoy a job that I had, I didn't ever have a drive to become self employed, I just kind of like, well, my mum had been self-employed, so it didn't seem like this big daunting thing, but I just kind of fell into it. And then it was much, in a lot of ways, much more comfortable than having a job.
(08:41):
Obviously you are a fellow self-employed person, it's a lot more uncomfortable in a lot of ways, but psychologically and from that thing of people with a ADHD some days they'll have loads of energy, some days they'll have no energy, not constantly getting feedback that you then, if you have rejection sensitivity dysphoria, you perceive as negativity. There's so many things.
(09:01):
My view on it is that it probably is a mixture of both that the entrepreneurial mindset that goes along with having an ADHD fast brain, but then also.
Jeni Smith (09:10):
Circumstancial.
Becca Brighty (09:11):
Not fitting in, in the workplace. I'm self employed, never was a dream. My sister, she, you know Rosie, she is self employed as a result of discrimination and she's never felt comfortable.
(09:25):
I don't know many people who I think know who own businesses and also have a ADHD, where from a young age they were like, I really want to do this.
Jeni Smith (09:35):
Yeah.
Becca Brighty (09:35):
I don't know. I don't think anyone, I think most of the people who I know have then become then got diagnosed. Most of them being diagnosed late in life after 30, they're then looking back on it and being like, ''Oh, that's why I wanted to set my own business. I never felt like I fit in. I couldn't be productive.''
(09:52):
For me, always, part of the reason for setting up for this podcast is this feeling of, I don't feel like in my life in general, yeah, it's been stressful, I had mental health problems, but I've got a really lovely family, I've got good friends, et cetera. But my career has been so frustrating and it's just, I'd say it's been a negative experience, but there doesn't seem to be that much help for ADHD at work.
Jeni Smith (10:19):
Right.
Becca Brighty (10:20):
There seems to be quite a lot of, not a lot, but there's increasing support for ADHD in your life in general. But I don't see many things that are specifically focused on helping people to achieve their potential, have the impact they want to and actually enjoy their jobs and not just come home exhausted every day.
Jeni Smith (10:38):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Becca Brighty (10:39):
And so that's the purpose of getting people like you on here to talk to share the kind of the expert information, but with that ADHD lens on it.
Jeni Smith (10:48):
Yeah, absolutely.
Becca Brighty (10:49):
So was your conclusion that, what was the conclusion that you guys drew about whether or not it is this idea of, that's how people's brains work, so they're driven towards entrepreneurship or that it's the circumstances?
Jeni Smith (11:01):
I think, like you said, I think it's a combination of both. I think that the discovery or our contribution, hopefully to the literature is that there is self silencing behaviour, and there's a link there. And on the grand scale of things, our research projects, it's a tiny little drop in the ocean, but hopefully it could be a call to action for more research to be done into it.
(11:21):
Because there's two sides to the coin, I guess, in that in a way, people who have ADHD who end up as entrepreneurs because they're forced into it, it could be a good thing because they end up creating businesses that they love and they find that joy and that happiness.
(11:40):
But then on the flip side, businesses are missing out on these amazingly talented people who could be really happy and fulfilled and contribute massively to organisations and create a more diverse workforce, especially if they're working in businesses whose target market include people who are neurodiverse and given that perspective. And it doesn't have to be massive changes that would be made, but little things that could be done to help prevent that self silencing behaviour, which does lead to exhaustion. It leads to mental health problems and that burnout essentially.
(12:16):
If businesses can make those adjustments, to be able to retain that talent. Amazing. And it could be, and it means that you're not forcing people out. Because no one should be forced down any path really.
Becca Brighty (12:32):
Yeah, I think that's the thing. I think the ADHD brain is perfect for entrepreneurship, but it should be a choice.
Jeni Smith (12:39):
Absolutely.
Becca Brighty (12:39):
We shouldn't be living in a situation where it's like.
Jeni Smith (12:42):
You've got no choice, yeah.
Becca Brighty (12:42):
The only way you can really succeed is if you set up your own business and then there's, as an ADHD'er, there's a lot of challenges.
Jeni Smith (12:48):
That come with that.
Becca Brighty (12:49):
That come with that, that a neurotypical person might not experience as well.
(12:52):
So I think you've touched on something really important there, that if business owners and organisations can make little tweaks, then they can really, really reap the benefits of how the ADHD brain actually works when it's in the right environment.
(13:09):
So how did this research, so your whole thing is networking.
Jeni Smith (13:13):
Yeah.
Becca Brighty (13:13):
Love networking, don't you? Loves a bit of networking, Jeni.
(13:17):
So how did this, well, do you have any thoughts around after doing this research around networking and neurodivergence?
Jeni Smith (13:25):
Oh yeah, like networking. So obviously from the research, I was able to learn a lot from the literature and research around neurodiversity, around ADHD stuff that I didn't know before. So that's always useful and helpful and applying it into my more professional brain context, which is obviously networking.
(13:46):
So the purpose of my business, of NetKnow is to help people to network smarter, whether that's through networking, training, creating strategies, whatever it might be. And that includes people who are neurodiverse, and I know that, well, I've learned a lot from that research around the different challenges that potentially people who have ADHD will experience when it comes to networking.
(14:08):
Their experience of a networking event, for example, the traditional come along, get a coffee, have a chat, mingle mix with people. Their experience is going to be very different from someone who doesn't have ADHD, someone who they experience that very differently.
(14:24):
And there's different things to take into consideration, I think from a hosts perspective, which I found really insightful because prior to teaching networking skills, well, I was a full-time networker for a year in Liverpool, which was great, but I've also ran a lot of networking events. So I spent a long time running events in Cumbria and then over here in the North East.
(14:44):
And you always try and design events in a way to make people feel the most comfortable. So when it comes to networking, networking environments and those moments in which we connect with others, those rooms, those spaces, they're very vulnerable spaces to put ourselves.
(15:00):
And from my networking research that I'm doing for my PhD, my actual thesis, that vulnerability level, our tolerance for vulnerability, it can depend on a number of different factors, but mental health, things like that, that plays a part.
(15:16):
So if we are struggling with our own mental emotional health at any time in our lives, which a lot of most of us will at some point, our tolerance for vulnerability is very low. So asking someone to put themselves physically into an environment in which they feel vulnerable, which essentially comes down to social rejection and that social rejection that we experience or we're scared of when it comes to going to a network event, because you literally have to approach someone and it's like being a kid at the playground, ''Do you want to be friends?''
(15:45):
And then people are like, ''Nah.''
(15:46):
And you're like, ''Oh!''
(15:47):
And it's like that social rejection that we are potentially going to feel, which we experience in the same part of our brain as physical pain. So you are asking someone to put themselves into an environment where not only do they feel vulnerable, which is an emotion that we often are not comfortable with, but they're potentially going to be socially rejected, which is ingrained in us as humans. We need that social acceptance because historically, if we were chucked out by the tribe, you'd literally die in the cold. You needed the tribe.
(16:19):
So asking people to experience potential physical pain, that's a lot. And asking people to do that who are already struggling with their own mental or emotional health, they haven't got the tolerance for it.
(16:31):
So those environments are literally, it's not worth, when we're putting ourselves in a vulnerable situation, we have to, our brains kind of calculate is the potential return from this worth that risk of physical pain or emotional pain? Is it worth it?
(16:49):
And if the answer's no or we haven't got the tolerance for it, we're just not going to do it, or it's going to, again, that experience is going to be a lot more difficult to go through.
(17:00):
So for people with ADHD who are going to experience the environment in a different way, and they're potentially going to have a lot more sensitivity to, like you said before, that criticism, that social rejection, which they've probably experienced a lot in their lives already. It's a lot more, the vulnerability that, the stakes are a lot higher. So again, for me, the journey of doing that research for ADHD at work has really helped me to better empathise from a perspective of networking environments and events, which can only be a good thing, hopefully anyway.
Becca Brighty (17:37):
Absolutely.
(17:38):
And so what would you say to anyone who was running an event to make it more approachable for people with ADHD?
Jeni Smith (17:47):
I was going to say do research, but I think the best thing that we can do is have conversations. Any event host wants their guests to be comfortable, they want themm to get value from being there. They want them to have the best experience possible because they want them to keep coming back and they want them to get enjoyment and make connections.
(18:02):
Unless they know and can understand from the perspective of someone with ADHD. And for me, the best thing to do is simply have conversations with people, unless they can understand they can't make the tweaks.
(18:18):
Having quiet spaces at an event and have it sign posted and understood so that if it's a big free for all event, having quiet zones where people can go and take a minute, they can check emails, do whatever they need to do. Again, a lot of this is to do with energy levels, and this applies to introverts as well as people with ADHD.
(18:37):
Again, energy levels, if you're introverted, those one to many conversations are going to be exhausting, so having a quiet space.
(18:42):
Easy to do, dead simple, but it creates that, people know that they can check out. Having a clear itinerary so people know what's coming, having clear instructions for things like parking or if you can, include photographs of the floor plan of the venues so people can mentally walk around so they know exactly where they're going before they get there, all these things, they make it more, they reduce the barriers that people create in their minds.
(19:11):
Like, ''Oh, I don't want to go because I don't know where to park.'' ''I don't want to go because I don't know where I'm going.'' ''I've not been to that venue before.''
(19:16):
All these mental barriers that they create. and this is yes for people with ADHD, but this also benefits people that don't have ADHD. It makes it better for everybody and it genuinely helps everyone. And I don't think you can ever give too much information.
(19:34):
And again, having ongoing conversations with delegates to get that feedback loop going, what did you like about it? What didn't you like about it?
(19:42):
Asking people in your network you know who are open. The more people who are open about their ADHD experience and perspectives, the better.
(19:52):
Because then I know I can come to you and say, ''I know that you are open with your ADHD, would you mind me asking you, what's your experience of networking events been? What would you love to see? What makes it easier for you?''
(20:04):
And a lot of it's that initiating of conversation to get that feedback going. So that's absolutely the first place to start, I think.
Becca Brighty (20:13):
Yeah, I love that parking one. So for me, that is, parking's a major source of anxiety for me.
(20:18):
So I've got this thing as well called Erling syndrome, which affects spacial awareness. So I've had lots of parking incidences in my life, like banging my car into things. And multi stories are an absolute nightmare because you're like, I'm near that turning thing.
Jeni Smith (20:33):
Yeah, yeah.
Becca Brighty (20:33):
So for me not knowing if there's going to be parking.
Jeni Smith (20:35):
Or where to park. Yeah, yeah.
Becca Brighty (20:38):
If it's on street parking, I just can't, I'm sorry, I can't pretend. I tried to come, there was only on street parking, had to go home.
Jeni Smith (20:44):
Oh bless you.
Becca Brighty (20:45):
But I think that that's a thing where you would just never think about that unless you have an issue with parking.
Jeni Smith (20:50):
You wouldn't.
Becca Brighty (20:50):
Why would you ever consider how that could actually stop someone from going somewhere?
Jeni Smith (20:55):
But that's the same for so many things. So I'm sober, I haven't drank in five years and going to networking events where the theme is alcohol, for example, unless you, or even any kind of black tie event on the evening, there's always welcome drinks, but sometimes there's not an alcohol free option. And then you end up just either having to buy one, which is just discrimination against sober people, or you just feel like a bit of a twat really with your Diet Coke or whatever. And everyone else has got a fancy champagne flute. I like champagne flutes, I like nice stemware, give me some kind of fizzy elder flower vibe and I'm all over it. Do you know what I mean?
(21:37):
But again, unless from the hosts perspective, and I get it from the hosts perspective, it's really hard to think of everything.
(21:44):
But if we can just have the conversation and start saying, ''Actually, if you have an alcohol free option, that's great for people who don't drink for personal choices, for religious choices, whatever.''
(21:55):
It's the same as dietary requirements. Asking people, do you have any dietary requirements? Because a lot of people get anxiety about eating at events or food. Again, I'm vegan, I'm an absolute twat like. I'm a sober vegan, I'm a nightmare.
(22:09):
But I think it's a conversation to have and I think a lot of hosts are always open to that and people are great at it now.
(22:19):
But I also think though from the other side of it, you sometimes do get people who are quite demanding, and it's the way in which these conversations are had. When you're a host of an event, it's almost like trying to manage hundreds of brides and they think that they're the brides and it's their event and it's like a full-time thing trying to reign these brides in. And it can be quite demanding.
Becca Brighty (22:48):
Is it about when you have a conference? Is that where when everyone has tables?
Jeni Smith (22:53):
But even just, I used to run, I was the manager director of the Muscle Club, which is a network here in the North Easr, and it's free to join, and a lot of the events are free to attend. Yet people felt the need to tell me how to do my job.
Becca Brighty (23:07):
Really?
Jeni Smith (23:07):
And there's a way of delivering it. Yeah, there's a way of delivering things. People would literally ring me and be like, ''Jeni, I think you should do this, and I think you should know that this, this, this.''
(23:15):
And now you're just like, whoa.
Becca Brighty (23:18):
Really?
Jeni Smith (23:18):
Sorry. Who are you? And why are you telling me how to do my job?
(23:23):
But if it was constructive from a place of, look, I'm sober, or I'm a vegan, or I'm a whatever, and it would be great if these were an option just to make people feel a bit more comfortable, I would totally be like, ''Eee, yeah, that's a great shout.''
(23:38):
I'll totally do that moving forward again, it makes it easier for everyone, but there's a way in which to deliver these things.
(23:43):
And at the time from a hosts perspective, having been the host, you do get a lot of people who just feel the need to ring you and tell you how to do your fucking job.
Becca Brighty (23:53):
Really well. I run an event in the North East, you've attended, you've attended this.
Jeni Smith (23:57):
Have you never had this?
Becca Brighty (23:57):
Nah.
Jeni Smith (23:57):
Have you not? Good.
Becca Brighty (23:57):
I must be just lovely.
Jeni Smith (23:59):
Good. You are just smashing it lass.
Becca Brighty (24:02):
It's a very, very nice community.
Jeni Smith (24:04):
Yeah. I love your events. I send people to your events a lot. I do. I love your events. Yeah.
Becca Brighty (24:09):
But yeah, that's really shocking to me just ringing someone up after a free event and giving them advice.
Jeni Smith (24:15):
Oh, yeah. Strong longly worded emails. Yeah. Not all the time, but yeah. Yeah, that's one of the reasons I stopped hosting events.
Becca Brighty (24:23):
Really?
Jeni Smith (24:24):
Yeah.
Becca Brighty (24:25):
Oh my goodness.
(24:26):
So on that sober thing, so a lot of people with ADHD, I'm finding more and more don't drink.
(24:30):
So either that is because of this executive, you'Re already working with limited impulse control at an alcohol and.
Jeni Smith (24:37):
There's all sorts of chaos!
Becca Brighty (24:38):
Career ending if things can happen. So that's one thing when you have ADHD medication, you're not meant to drink.
Jeni Smith (24:47):
Oh, does it not mix. Oh, right.
Becca Brighty (24:49):
No, this is something I come across quite a lot in ADHD'ers, but I still think that, and I think it just in general, people, it's not like when I was at uni, it was like.
Jeni Smith (24:59):
No, it's weird if you didn't drink. Yeah, it's more acceptable now.
Becca Brighty (25:02):
Now it's more the norm, but I still like some people don't want to go to social things because it is just let's go out for drinks and talking to drunk people when you're sober is horrendous.
Jeni Smith (25:12):
Christmas time, especially.
Becca Brighty (25:17):
So what kind of, what do you do?
Jeni Smith (25:22):
I think it's just knowing, like anything, once you know yourself and your own boundaries and being able to communicate that to others in a nice way. But it's a funny one with alcohol because sometimes when you say to people, ''Oh no, I don't drink,.'' They take it a personal insult to their drinking. I'm like, you drink whatever you want love, you crack on. I love seeing people get boozy, but then I'm like right night, see you later. I'm off. Take myself to bed. I like to be in bed by nine.
(25:51):
Knowing what your own boundaries are, not forcing yourself to stay when you're uncomfortable. Not forcing yourself to go if you don't want to. Like if it's a networking event where people are just going to be getting pissed, then why do you want to be there anyway?
Becca Brighty (26:05):
So what about though, when it's workplace or have some people who they don't want to go to if they have an annual event or whatever, then people are going for drinks afterwards or they go to a conference for example, and then everyone afterwards their team team is going out for drinks. They kind of feel a bit like, well, I don't want to seem really antisocial, but also I don't want to just go and be with people who are just getting drunk all night. Not no judgement , but that's just not my thing.
(26:34):
How do you manage that situation? Something where you do have a choice but you actually are concerned about how you'll come across to your colleagues.
Jeni Smith (26:42):
I get that. But then see this is self silencing in itself. This is altering your own personal preferences to please other people. And a lot of people drink alcohol to please other people. Weirdly, I don't know what it is.
(26:57):
See, I quit smoking, right? I quit smoking and everyone was like, ''Yes, Jeni, go on lass. That's class. Amazing. Good for you.''
(27:04):
Then it was like two months later I quit drinking and everyone was like, ''Well, why? Are you pregnant? Are you on drugs?''
(27:11):
No, I'm not. I'm not on drugs.
Becca Brighty (27:13):
Are you on medication?
Jeni Smith (27:14):
Are you on medication? Yeah. Like, oh, I always got, ''Well, how long for?''
(27:18):
I don't know, I'm just seeing how it goes. For me, it was a massive negative impact on my emotional health, alcohol for me. And it took me a long time to realise that, but it just doesn't work for me.
(27:32):
So I'm an all or nothing person and I'm much better without alcohol. I'm a much happier person. I'm a better person without it.
(27:40):
But the response I had from others was crazy, and it wasn't just peer pressure. It was that whole, almost like me not drinking is insulting your drinking.
(27:50):
And it reminds me a lot of parenting. I'm off on a tangent here, but you know how in parenting everyone makes their own choices and it's almost like if you choose to breastfeed or if you choose to bottle feed, you're insulting the other group in a way. Because what you're seeing is you are doing it wrong because I'm choosing something else. And it's this weird and it shouldn't be like that, because neither is right nor wrong. If you can drink alcohol and have a few and enjoy yourself, then I wish I could, but I just can't. So I don't.
(28:20):
Yeah, it's this weird kind of knowing your own boundaries, knowing what works for you, knowing your comfort level is important.
(28:29):
And once you get to a point, if you are in an environment, an event, whether it's a social event or a work event and you're like, ''Yeah, I'm not comfortable here.'' Go, what are you staying for? They're not going to remember in the morning anyway if you're there or not. They've got no idea.
(28:44):
So for me, I would say first choice is knowing that it is a choice and you don't have to go to these things if you are actually uncomfortable.
(28:53):
I get you don't want to miss out. But at the same time, don't allow that need to please others force you to be unhappy for yourself, because again, this goes back to the self silencing. That's essentially what it is.
(29:07):
The other thing I'd say is, so for me personally, I like to, if you get there early, get in there early. When everyone's just on the pre-drink, they're all just especially Christmas parties or work things.
(29:19):
If you get there at the beginning and enjoy that level of where everyone's just on a nice little buzz, you can just have a few, I like an alcohol free beer because it feels like you're still engaged but you're not, or love me a Pepsi Max.
(29:34):
So getting there early and enjoying just the first couple of hours, and then once it gets to that tipping point and they're all doing shots at the bar when they will literally not notice whether you're there or not, they will not notice then just bow out. Take yourself home.
Becca Brighty (29:49):
I love that smug feeling as well when you wake up the next day.
Jeni Smith (29:50):
Yeah wake up the next day.
Becca Brighty (29:51):
Everyone else else is dying.
Jeni Smith (29:52):
Yeah, you're like, ''Mwahaha.''
(29:52):
Bless them, again wish I could, just can't.
(29:58):
So, knowing what your boundaries are, get there early, enjoy the beginning and then just bow out whenever you want. But don't force yourself being in situations where especially if you're really uncomfortable, it's not worth it. It ain't worth it.
Becca Brighty (30:11):
Yeah. No, I love the fact you brought that self silent. I hadn't even thought about that self silencing thing of like, and that people pleaser thing that I see in a lot of ADHD'ers. Is like.
Jeni Smith (30:19):
That's what it is.
Becca Brighty (30:20):
Like I don't want to do this.
Jeni Smith (30:23):
But I'm going to do it.
Becca Brighty (30:23):
But I want other people.
Jeni Smith (30:25):
That is literally what it is, yeah. I want other people to feel comfortable, so I'm going to put their needs above my needs.
(30:30):
That is not good for mental and emotional health. Long term it's not sustainable. You are suppressing your natural instincts.
(30:38):
Obviously no one wants to be rude and I think there's a balance, but don't force yourself into environments that you're not happy in just to please other people. For what?
Becca Brighty (30:48):
Yeah. Well that's really, really great advice. And I hadn't even considered it from that people pleasing thing.
(30:53):
And it's so funny what you say about like, people are offended. It's like you'd never like, ''Oh, I'm going to have a cheese sandwich.'' And then someone who eats a beef sandwich like being really offended.
Jeni Smith (31:02):
How dare you choose beef? What is wrong with you? Force feeding beef sandwiches onto people.
(31:08):
But with alcohol, it's such a funny one as well because socially it's is a drug and we don't force crack on someone, have some crack.
(31:17):
I'm not going to take offence if you don't want to do cocaine. Do you know what I mean? Do whatever you want. And me not doing something is not a reflection on you doing it. And I think that comes from both sides. Yeah.
Becca Brighty (31:32):
They would call that the sound bite.
Jeni Smith (31:33):
There you go.
Becca Brighty (31:34):
I'm not going to force you to do crack. Don't force me to do crack and I won't force you to eat beef sandwiches. I mean I'm vegan, so if you don't have tofu, then fuck you.
(31:44):
No, do what you want.
(31:48):
Well.
Jeni Smith (31:48):
We went off on a tangent there.
Becca Brighty (31:50):
We really did.
Jeni Smith (31:51):
We did. It's okay.
Becca Brighty (31:52):
Breastfeeding.
Jeni Smith (31:53):
Breastfeeding, tofu, crack.
Becca Brighty (31:55):
Tofu, beef sandwiches.
Jeni Smith (31:56):
Right? You just never know.
Becca Brighty (31:58):
I wouldn't try, networking.
Jeni Smith (32:01):
Networking.
Becca Brighty (32:01):
So networking can take many forms.
(32:03):
So it can be the office party like we've just been talking about. So a lot of my clients will talk to me about feeling uncomfortable at meetings, say they turn up early and then they don't really know anyone else who's at the meeting and it's like that social bit beforehand.
(32:18):
Or things like workplace, social situations, Christmas parties, and then traditional networking.
(32:27):
What would you say people can do to make themselves feel more comfortable in those situations? Like practical tips.
Jeni Smith (32:34):
Yeah, because it's so varied and everyone responds to different situations in so many different ways. First thing is to understand what situations you respond to in that negative emotional way. When you have that negative response or the thought of something, whether that's, is it one-to-one situations, is it one to many? Is it is locations that you've not been to before or is it ones that you are comfortable in and have been to? Is it with people that you've met or is it people that you've not met?
(33:03):
I always remember a few years ago you saying to me the small talk literally makes you want to gouge your own eyes out. You hate the small talk.
(33:12):
But again, it's having that self-awareness and understanding firstly of what triggers you and then try and navigate those ones and look for ones where you feel more comfortable.
(33:24):
So if you don't like the one to many, opt for one-to-ones. So networking happens in any time we're having a conversation.
(33:32):
So me and you are networking right now. We're having a conversation, we're sharing information, resources, knowledge, and that's what networking is.
(33:39):
We're getting to know each other, spending time with each other. And that doesn't have to be in a hotel lobby with free coffee and pastries. That can be me and you on a podcast. It could be someone going for a lunch or for coffee.
(33:52):
Again, when you have that emotional response to something in a situation or the thought of a situation, make note of what it is, what is it? Why is it you are feeling that way? Is it because there's going to be food there and that makes you anxious? You don't like eating in front of people? Is it because you've never met someone before?
(34:10):
Make a note of these things and then look for ways that you can counteract that or actions that you can take to either navigate or negate those situations doing something either different. Where is it that you do feel comfortable? What do you like? So you like going deep, you like the deep convos, let's do that, then let's do that. Let's have one-to-ones where we can go deep and before the meetings even happened, we can be like, ''Right, I want to really talk to you about this topic and get really deep.''
(34:42):
And then the other person knows in the same breath, if you don't like going deep, and a lot of people don't, if you just like the small talk thingy, opt for those kind of networking.
(34:52):
So understanding yourself first, understanding what your triggers are and then looking for ways to do the opposite or do the things that do make you comfortable.
(35:02):
If you have to do the things that make you uncomfortable. Communication, I think, communicating that to the other person, but again, in a manner that's not, 'I feel this way, therefore you have to behave that way', because that's going to be counterproductive. That's not a great way to build relationships.
(35:18):
So there's a construct that I'm obsessed with in the literature called social distance, and it's usually applied to communities of people and it's measured on, so it's like how close or far apart those communities feel from each other. It's an emotional thing.
(35:36):
And when there's low levels of empathy, so when two groups of people don't understand each other, there's no empathy there, they're really far apart.
(35:46):
Whereas if you increase that empathy, it brings them closer. It's like, I am in a different community to you, but I understand you. I feel closer to you. Take that empathy away, further apart.
(35:59):
So I love applying this in networking, especially building diverse networks. So networking with people who think differently. They speak different languages. And I don't mean in terms of French and English, I mean academics versus techies versus third sector or whatever. When there's language barriers, there's cultural barriers. It's harder to have these and build these meaningful relationships. But when we share and when we communicate our perspective and our stance and how we feel, it can build that empathy in the other group, which brings us closer together. So it makes it a lot easier.
(36:34):
So rather than dictating to people, ''I feel this way, therefore you must behave this way.'' Which can happen, and I've experienced it. I've experienced it from the ADHD community.
Becca Brighty (36:46):
Really?
Jeni Smith (36:46):
A few times, and let's be honest, I'm probably ADHD myself. Everyone I speak to that has it is like, ''Jeni, have you been diagnosed yet?''
(36:53):
I'm like, no, not yet. It's fine. But I am on there somewhere.
Becca Brighty (36:59):
Just for the listeners. So Jeni runs a business, has a child, and then also recently decided that doing a part-time PhD was just not enough. So she needed to do a full-time one. She needed to turn it into full-time. So if you have ADHD, deal with that information what you will.
Jeni Smith (37:15):
Yeah, I proper hyperfocus on stuff.
(37:18):
But I have experienced it from, interestingly from suppliers.
(37:23):
People that I've paid money to do things for my business have come back to me with documents saying, 'This is how you need to behave in order for me to be comfortable.' But don't once ask me what I need. So it's that dictating I struggle with, and that can be from multiple, I'm not saying in any way that people with a ADHD are like that. I'm just saying that I've experienced it.
(37:51):
Whereas if it comes from a conversation, it's like, ''Look, this is where I come from. I know that I'm often late, I know that I struggle with the small details. I know this, this about myself. So I want you to be aware so that you can understand if something happens. That's where I'm coming from. But I'd also love to know where you are coming from.''
(38:10):
And me personally, time's really, if people are late, I take that as a personal insult. I'm proper funny with it. It comes from my mum and my sister who were an hour early for everything. I'm just an on-time person, but I can communicate that.
(38:26):
So again, it's this communication between the two groups. So if you know that you struggle with those environments, whether it's a work environment, a work event, whatever, talk to your boss who's organising the event, talk to the host, talk to the person you're having the meetings with, talk to your manager. Let them know what works for you, but also ask what works for them. Because it's a two-way street, that empathy, but that can really reduce that social distance and then it's going to make better environments for everyone.
(38:56):
And again, it comes down to it's not just helping this one person, it's helping everybody, and often it comes from building, I think building empathy and that can be seeped out into the wider team that you work with.
(39:09):
So in the work context, again, having firstly self-awareness, and then secondly, being able to communicate that with others in a way that's not dictating and it's just sharing with the hope of allowing people to understand.
(39:22):
So if I am working with someone, and again, I look back to my career and times I've been employed and there's people in the team that were really late always and didn't hit deadlines and it stressed me out.
(39:35):
But if I knew in that moment that that was because 'XYD', and they were neurodiverse or whatever, it would allow for that buffer and it would allow, and it would've reduced my stress, not as the person with the ADHD, but the person who was working with them. So it seeps out to everyone and just makes it, yeah, makes it better for all.
Becca Brighty (39:58):
I talk about a lot in terms of why education within businesses is so important. It's not just, ''Oh, we're going to come in, teach you about how ADHD affects people at work to benefit the people with ADHD.'' It benefits everyone because the people who work with them know, alright, well if I need that by Friday, I'll tell them I need it on Wednesday.
(40:19):
If they're late for a meeting, I'm not going to be sitting there furious. I know I can just go on my phone because they're probably going to be 10 minutes late because they're panicking and they can't park and whatever.
Jeni Smith (40:26):
Yeah, exactly. And you understand that once you understand that about each other and that empathy. But this is the same as menopause education or whatever. It's for the people that are going through it, but it's also for the wider everyone else to build that empathy to understand each other. Or someone on your team's just had a baby, and if you've never had a baby, it's impossible to empathise. But they can still communicate and share, and if they do, then it helps. It's that understanding so then they can adapt and it makes it better for everybody, I think.
Becca Brighty (40:58):
Yeah, I definitely don't think you can ever, I thought of myself as a non judgy person, but the difference between what I thought having a baby and working was like versus what the reality of having a baby and working is.
Jeni Smith (41:09):
Oh it's totally different, it's mental.
(41:11):
And every stage is totally different,
Becca Brighty (41:14):
Never going to get used to it.
Jeni Smith (41:15):
And people try and warn you, but then no, they can't. You can't. They're all different. Every labor's different, every baby's different, every person's different. So yeah, no, you can try and again, you just try and build up that understanding and empathy.
Becca Brighty (41:29):
I think that's a good parallel as well. Having that education around return to work. That's all really helpful. All these trying to understand everyone's different people's perspectives because that seems to be some sort of narrative. And you touched on it before, like, ''Oh, it's not fair that the smokers get to have breaks.''
(41:45):
It's like, well, for everyone, a five minute fresh air break. It doesn't have to be only ADHD people can have this and autistic people can have this, and neuro typical people can't have anything.
(41:54):
It's like that's not what it's about. It's about education on everyone's different point of view and what will help the different people.
(42:02):
And I guess you are saying that, I guess what I'm kind of taking from this is networking is just like life.
Jeni Smith (42:09):
It's absolutely just like, we're all bonkers in our own ways and everyone's got a different perspective. Everyone's got a different, for me, the idea of neurotypical, I struggle with that word quite a lot because I don't think there's such a thing. It doesn't exist.
(42:28):
I think everyone's got their own trauma or they respond to different language differently based on their upbringing or past relationships. Everyone is wired in their own unique, wonderful way. And that's part of the joy of networking, that you get to speak to people who see the world differently to you, which allows you to spark innovative ideas and share different perspectives. And that's the joy of it all.
(42:58):
This is where designing networking environments and events, there should be such a vast array. And there is, and it's picking the ones that are best suited to you that you feel most comfortable, especially when you're first starting, to allow you to build up that confidence.
(43:15):
It's also about courage and having the courage to put yourself out there. And again, the more you do it, the easier it gets.
(43:21):
But I think building that empathy across for yourself first and foremost, but then for others, and then if we're all just kind to each other.
(43:30):
Networking, yeah, it's just like life. You just got to just be nice. Just be nice to people, that's all it is. And just have conversations.
Becca Brighty (43:38):
Yeah. So themes I'm picking up from you is like self, things I talk about a lot in terms of workplace education, but also in coaching is having that self-awareness for yourself, but then the empathy for other people is just going to make it all.
Jeni Smith (43:50):
Absolutely.
Becca Brighty (43:50):
Much easier for everyone.
(43:53):
So coming to the end of our, sadly coming to the end of our time together, but I just want to ask you two questions that I ask everybody.
Jeni Smith (44:00):
Oh, I love this, curveball!
Becca Brighty (44:03):
So what tip would you give to ADHD'ers to help them make the impact they want to in the workplace, business. entrepreneurship based on your research, but also your understanding of networking, which we now know is life.
Jeni Smith (44:15):
It is. It's just life. See, it's so important. It's same for everyone, ADHD or not.
(44:23):
But I would say, I always say, go and get therapy. Not because you're crazy, but because first and foremost, I think you need to really understand yourself and understand, this was a big one for me. So counselling is dealing with something that's just happened, therapy is looking back and understanding why you are the way you are.
(44:43):
And I think especially if you've had a diagnosis later on in life, there's a lot of self-reflection from the people I've spoke to. And there's a lot of these moments of, ''Oh, that's why I did that. That's why this happened.''
(44:53):
But there's also a lot of maybe grieving for what could have been had you known earlier. And that's a lot to unpack. So go and speak to a therapist, it's honestly the best thing you'll ever do. And you'll really get to understand why you are the way you are now and accept and navigate relationships in such a different way, but especially with yourself.
(45:17):
And that's going to allow you to then make better decisions and understand who you are and understand what it is you actually want to achieve.
(45:25):
Not achieving things you feel you should, but actually what is it you want?
(45:30):
And in order to do that and have the impact that you want, you need to know who you are first and foremost. So go, yeah, go get therapy.
Becca Brighty (45:38):
Therapy and coaching for me is the best business investment I've ever made.
Jeni Smith (45:42):
Oh yeah, a hundred percent. Me too. Yeah.
Becca Brighty (45:45):
Because you are, if you're self-employed, you are your business.
Jeni Smith (45:48):
Yeah, exactly. And if you are not good, your business is no good.
(45:51):
But also.
Becca Brighty (45:51):
And if you're an employee, you are yourself, but you are the asset to the business. And however good you are is only however well you feel.
Jeni Smith (46:01):
It's a huge business investment, absolutely. And unless you know who you are and what you actually want in life, in business, you're never going to make the right choices to get there. So yeah, that's absolutely, do it.
Becca Brighty (46:13):
I love that.
(46:17):
And what tip would you give to people who are employing those with ADHD, to help them to achieve their potential?
Jeni Smith (46:24):
Have conversations. again, just start asking questions in a safe way, in an open, honest way. Allow yourself as an employer to be vulnerable and hold your hands up and say, ''I don't know about this. It's not something I've ever experienced, but I want to learn and I'm listening.''
(46:42):
And just be open to that, and I think starting those conversations and then actually taking action to back it up. So whether that's conversations with staff, conversations with experts like yourself, doing some research, looking into it, just being open to learning and then taking those actions to prove that you are actually listening. That's just going to build so much trust with your staff, your team. It's going to create environments that are better for everybody. It just ticks every box, I think. And it's such a great investment in your business, in your talent, and it's going to keep them there, and you're going to get all the benefits for you and the business.
Becca Brighty (47:25):
Fantastic. OK, great.
(47:27):
Well that's sadly all we have time for, but if people are interested in your research or in your fantastic networking advice, so Jeni did a networking strategy for me, which was really helpful.
(47:41):
So if anyone wants to find you, where can they find you?
Jeni Smith (47:43):
They can just go to 'netkno.co uk', which is N-E-T-K-N-O. I feel like it needs a jingle.
Becca Brighty (47:48):
You've said that before, haven't you?
Jeni Smith (47:49):
It needs a jingle, doesn't it? Yeah.
(47:51):
Netkno.co.uk. Yeah.
Becca Brighty (47:53):
OK. Thanks very much. See you, Jeni.
Jeni Smith (47:55):
Thanks!
Becca Brighty (47:59):
Thanks for listening. If you want more information around this topic or details on the ways I support individuals in the workplace and help businesses to be more ADHD friendly, please go to 'adhdimpact.com' or follow me, Becca Brighty, on LinkedIn.
In this engaging episode of The ADHD Impact podcast, our host Becca Brighty, a seasoned Business Psychologist and ADHD Coach, delves into a thought-provoking conversation with Jeni Smith, founder of NetKno and networking strategist. 🎙️
Jeni shares illuminating insights from her research into ADHD in the workplace, shedding light on the challenges individuals with ADHD encounter in networking situations and the concept of "self-silencing." Discover practical tips for navigating networking events and workplace scenarios, alongside the vital role of therapy and coaching for personal and professional growth. 🧠
Explore strategies for fostering inclusive environments and supporting employees with ADHD as Becca and Jeni navigate through this insightful discussion. Don't miss out on this episode filled with valuable insights and actionable advice! 📚
Episode Note:
Challenges faced by ADHD individuals in networking situations
Understanding the impact of "self-silencing" on job satisfaction
Practical tips for navigating networking events and workplace scenarios
🧠 Insights:
Importance of therapy and coaching for personal growth
Strategies for creating inclusive workplaces
📚 Connect:
Connect with Jeni and discover more about NetKno. Access resources for ADHD professionals and employers aiming to create inclusive work environments.
Find out more about Jeni Smith and NetKnow here:
Follow Jeni Smith on LinkedIn: Jeni Smith's LinkedIn Profile
Visit the NetKnow website: NetKnow Website
Find out more about ADHD Impact here: ADHD Impact Website
Follow Becca Brighty on LinkedIn: Becca Brighty's LinkedIn Profile